Okay, we have started Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and now it is time to actually respond to what you have read thus far. What are you noticing? What do you like? What do you dislike? WHY? WHY? WHY?
Post 5 times a week over the next 3 weeks, and be sure that you respond (3 times out of the 5) to the posts of your peers.
1) Personal Fog. What is your personal Fog?
2) Who do you know like Chief Bromden (lost in their own personal fog)?
3) Who is Randall P. McMurphy?
-Define McMurphy’s characteristics
4) Do you know anyone like McMurphy?
-Breaking free of tradition
-Damn the man
-Free-Thinking?
5) Acutes. Are they simply monkeys?
-Yes Men!
6) Chronics. What are they hiding from? Why?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
69 comments:
RPM is a complete nut job. What's with the Chief? He's just walking around like he doesn't even know that he is living....
I like the book so far. It seems like it has more of a plot than The Great Gatsby or The Sun Also Rises.
I don't really understand what role McMurphy is going to take in the story; I thought he was going to be the narrator actually.
Are we supposed to answer all these questions?
YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER ALL OF THEM, OR ANY OF THEM, THOSE ARE TO BE USED TO GUIDE YOU IF YOU ARE LOST.
Do you think McMurphy is a fake(not really medically illed person)?
I would'nt consider him a fake, it doesn't seem like theres anything wrong with him, but almost that someone could'nt take it anymore and dropped him off there, like the old war Colonel Matterson was.
Response to Gdog's comment.
Why would McMurphy create a lie to enter a mental hospital? Where is the benefit to being imprisoned there rather than staying in normal society?
Chief- McMurphy didn't create a lie to enter the mental hospital. He says that they "sent him there," meaning he did not admit himself. To me, it does not seem like McMurphy sees a point in being at the mental hospital, and personally I don't think (for his sake) there is a point. I do not believe that he is mentally ill in any way, just a little "out there."
Regarding Gdog's post, I slightly believe that McMurphy is a fake, because perhaps McMurphy did not fight back the court's ruling to send him to the mental hospital, because he wanted a new group of people to gamble with. Regaring chief's post, I agree with Natalie that McMurphy did not create a lie to go the mental hospital. McMurphy stated that when the court decided to send him to the mental hospital, he did not fight back, because he did not want to go back to the Pendleton Work Farm. I guess McMurphy would rather be in a mental hospital than the Pendleton Work Farm.
To add to what david said...yeah Mcmurphy didn't go against the court's ruling. Somewhere between pages 14-41 Mcmurphy said something like there was no one left at the pendleton work farm to entertain him anymore so that's why he decided to just go to the mental hospital.
as of right now, i think i like this book. I had a problem with the last two books we read because there was now depth of character. I think this book has a more interesting flow. I do have one question though, are the black boys gay???
umm back to my comment sorry that is not supposed to be now ha-ha-ha its supposed to be no** sorry my bad.
I agree with Natalie in that McMurphy does not have a mental illness. I think he just has a very bold and outspoken personality and people around him don't know how to respond to it. I also think that McMurphy is power hungry and perhaps the reason that he didn't go against the court's ruling was because he was bored with Pendleton because he had already made himself the "man in charge" over there and now he wants a new challenge where he can try to gain more power some place else.
yeah..im a little confused by McMurphy as well. i do not think he is really mentally ill and has been put in the hospital for some other reason..but it seems like McMurphy has some kind of a preious connection to the nurse-maybe im totally wrong but the way it describes nurse and mcmurphy talk, it seems like he already knows her and is maybe working with her..?
so a couple of people have mentioned that mcmurphy would rather be at the mental hospital than at the pendleton work farm because he did not seem to object to going to the hospital... but do we know yet, what McMurphy was actually doing at the farm?? did he have to do hard labor or was he mistreated??...
Response to stephanie, I think that the connection you brought up between McMurphy and the nurse makes sense, its like hes and insider for her. It makes you pay attention more when not much is going on.
I think it's interesting that the chief can understand and listen to everything everyone else says or does, even though they think he's deaf and dumb. Once again though, we know that we cannot trust everything the chief says since he's unreliable and in a mental hospital. The chief also said something about McMurphy might know that he wasn't deaf and dumb..which might foreshadow something later in the book.
Catherine is cool!
In response to Chief's questions, "why would McMurphy want to lie to get in a mental hospital?", their are many reasons. Perhaps he really just wanted to get out of the tiresome "chain gang" like systems of the regular pentitentiary. But maybe it is more complicated than that, maybe he wanted to go to the asylum to somehow open up the patients' eyes to something new. Maybe he does have some higher purpose. He is supposed to take down the establishment from within to free them all.
I would actually agree to most everyone's consensus, McMurphy is not mentally ill. What I have had debating upon was wether to catergorize him as not being mentally ill because mental illness does exist and he simply does not fit the picture or is it that mental illness does not exist because it is merely based on relativity etc... and that ensures that he is not mentally ill. It is what I think is one of the sub themes in the book, and is open to debate, regarding many patients including and especially the Chief.
In response to Stephanie, I know what your hinting at but I would have to disagree. That part on page 28, is a little weird, I know, but I think it is merely the author showing that there is going to be some sort of rift between McMurphy and the Nurse. When it say the both smile back at eachother, I can picture that in my head and I can see the Nurse doing that to every patient when they rebel against her orders.
I agree with Natalie and pretty much everyone that McMurphy is not mentally ill. He might seem different than the rest of the in patients but isn't that a good thing? The people in the ward are pretty much done with their lives, they accept that they are mentally ill and don't try to overcome it. However McMurphy wasn't supposed to be there he was supposed to go to jail, so he is just displaying his character, full of life. Also it seems that Nurse Rachet enjoys having the patients be in pain, especially because of her ties to the combine.
In response to maura
I agree with maura comment saying its cool respective on listining on what is chief is experiencing, espically because everyone expect for Mcmurphy is against him. I think this really add to the stroy.
So far I believe that the black boys are 'sane' because they're workers for the institution and they're not actually the patients. Also, to back it up, the Big Nurse seems to condone their actions, like the event with the vaseline. If this is the case, why does it seem like they're participating in actions that are more crazy by their irrational thinking? It seems to me that although the patients are mentally disturbed, the majority of the staff is ironically corrupt as those individuals. Anyone agree?
Regarding Catherine's comment about McMurphy bringing life into the lifeless mental hospital, I have to agree. As Chief said when McMurphy was being admitted, McMurphy brought something that that mental hospital has never expierienced before: a genuine laugh. Perhaps with McMurphy's presence in the mental hospital, the other patients can have a better chance of overcoming their insanity and understanding reality, which would allow them to be discharged from the mental hospital.
i totally agree with sara jess.
but i dont think they are "corrupt" in the same way. the inmates are mentally ill, even thou some of them could have been fixed, that most likely wont happen. but the staff is just sick. like honestly, they get enjoyment from hurting the inmates. i also agree with david, that mcmurphy has the abilty to change the hospital. but there is a chance that the hospital could change him...
hehehe. with Murph and Juon the behavior of the black boys seem somewhat inevitable. it somewhat reminded me of the movie Shawshank Redemption when this guy was getting butt raped. it's almost as if it's surivival of the fittest, except with sex...
I am so agreeing with Alexbott(?) I don't see any implications to where McMurphy may be fully diagnosed as mentally ill. As of how Chief and Miss Ratched(sp?) see it, they see McMurphy as a diagnosed mentally ill adult, who is a threat and faces them with problems. I may be getting this wrong, but its something to be thought over. :]
I'm liking the connection to the Shawshank Redemeption...great movie...As far as "why would McMurphy want to lie to get in a mental hospital?". We know he's a gambler and he straight up tells them that he was looking for new people to sucker money out of. Is he being their friend by telling the truth or just being brutally honest? What does he see the patients as...
i don't think he's necessarily befriending anyone. he may be lacking social skills because he's so into gambling and what not- he probably lacks the idea of sensoring himself.
WOHA NOW....lol keep it PG-13....haha...
anyways when i was reading this book i started to make a connection with the text and the title...
"One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest."
-The"One,"stated in the title would be McMurphy.
-The "Cuckoo's Nest," in my mind, is a direct relationship between the people in the mental hospital and the mental hospital itself, and one could describe it as being cuckoo's (acutes,cronics,black boys, the nurse) in the "Nest" (which is the hospital). McMurphy is Metaphorically flying over the Cuckoo's nest because he doesn't have a mental disorder, he just wants to "fly" over and get a look at what it is like in the hospital.
I dont know if this is right...but that is the connection i made.
In response to Sara Jess's comment- I believe that if there is anyone in the story that is mentally ill, it would have to be the black guys. I know that they are not admitted to the hospital or anything, but to perform the actions that they perform, their brains must not work right. I can not see a completely healthy person completing the actions that they complete with out putting up a fight and complaining.
i can definately see why you made that connection "jack ramathorn." but i think that the chief could also possibly be the "one" that flies over the cuckoo's nest because he's sort of watching over the ward and the events that are taking place like a bird watching everything from up above. but, i still don't understand why the chief is considered a chronic? is it because he's been there the longest? in pgs. 42-69 it mentioned that he "visited" the shock shop around 200 times when it was popular, but we don't know what his condition is yet.
in response to jack ramathorn- I never really thought of the meaning of the title yet, but to me, your thinking makes a lot of sense.
in response to deegz44 and anyone who thinks McMurphy "lied" to get into the hospital- where are you getting that he lied to get there? Early in the book, McMurphy said that he was sent there. He didn't say anything about lying to get there, he just said that he didn't oppose to going to the hospital.
yleinah, i can see where you are coming from,but you ask and stated "i still don't understand why the chief is considered a chronic? is it because he's been there the longest?" and that question would contradic your theory and back up mine of McMurphy being the "One"
regaurdless why is the Chief considered a Cronic?
i think he's considered a chronic based on the only evidence that he doesn't talk. chief said himself that he truly isn't deaf and/or dumb. so because he lacks speech and doesn't communicate with anyone else of the mental hospital- he's just catagorized as one of the ones that cannot be 'fixed'.
i still just dont understand the difference between chronics and acutes
In response to Catherine's comment..
"The people in the ward are pretty much done with their lives, they accept that they are mentally ill and don't try to overcome it."
i dont think that they're done with their lives because at least the Actues knows that they could be cure, although risking themselves of turning into chronics after going through shocks etc. Also, in the book, it talks about how Actues and the Chronics are separated from the each groups not just because the Nurse force them but afraid of becoming the Chronics.
In response to Juon...
I think Acutes are like the new-comers; they still have a chance to be cured. The chronics have gone through too much shock therapy and the hospital has kind of lost hope of them ever being able to leave the ward better than the way they came.
Hope that helps.
in response to Jack ramathorn, i think that is a really good analogy of the title. that definitly makes sense. i agree that mcmurphy is the one that flew over the cuckoo's nest--he is the one that actually sees the "cuckoo" behavior in the hospital and realizes the messed up theories the nurse is telling the patients. i think mcmurphy is the most reliable character right now because he has not been shock and mistreated yet- his brain is still normal--we assume. he is the one that tries to be different and change the rules of the hospital.
In response to Natalie's comment, I agree that the black boys must have something wrong with them. Bromden said that the Big Nurse picked her assistants by seeing if they could hate enough but by what the black boys do to the patients it seems like they are only there for pleasure and to be in a place in which they can take advantage of people.
I really also like this book its not boring like the Sun Also Rises and I like that its being told from the perspective of the Chief, the fact that he has skitsophraenia gives the story more depth and appeal to me personally.
About Deegz44's post about why he is in the hospital. I dont think he is in there just to make money off te inmates. How much money can they really have? I think he is in there because he is dealing with post traumatic stress disorder from the war. He is just making up excuses for why he is there.
in response to D.S's post, I think McMurphy is in the ward because he doesnt fit in with regular society. Shown by his fighting,gambling,and relations he cant find where he belongs. Another reason he is in the ward is because he believes that it is a big improvement from the work camp which is where he was before getting transferred to the hospital.
For tonight's reading, I really liked the scene where McMurphy attempted to lift the concrete control panel. Especially when he said "Well at least I tried" after he failed. I think that not only is he trying to back up his own ego, but he's trying to help the other ward patients by standing up for what he believes in, for what they believe in, since they are too afraid to do it.
In response to apurvas comment: I agree that McMurphy is in the ward becuase he wanted to get out of working at the work camp to serve the rest of his sentence and because he is a gambler i think he is looking for new people to play.
I agree with Hillary, MacMurphy is always tryining to look good in front of the other patients. He wants to be on top and in control.
I agree with hillary I think mcmurphy is always trying really hard when hes around the the other patients. I also liked when he said “Well at least I tried” because it shows that even when he fails he still tries to act like he did a good job. I think he is showing the other ward patients that he has a big ego and isnt afraid to show it.
Yeah, what I think McMurphy tried to do is first see how the hospital works and the relations between the patients and Ratched, then he is trying to become popular among the patients so that he is respected more than Nurse Ratched is feared.
It's easy for mcmurphy to become top dog in the looney bin because he is the most sane individual there. He might've wanted a shot at being the leader, to kinda "damn the man".
I agree with whatthedickens, it is easy for RPM to be the top dog, but not because he is the most sane person there, because he is the only one willing to stand up for himself. McMurphy is the only one in the ward that will stand up for what is right.
I agree with the idea that RPM is in fact the "Top Dog" in the ward at the moment like dickens and mitzy25 have said, however I do not believe he is doing this to stand up for what he believes in, but rather becuase RPM is 38 years old and from what we now of him has been in some kind of trouble his entire life. I think that the ward is the one place where he feels safe and like he can express himself without being judged.
RPM is an outside influence on the patients. I don’t think he should be in the ward at all. That’s why Nurse Ratched has almost no control over him. He is showing the patients that they can think for themselves and things don’t have to be so bad.
In responce to D.S., I agree with tha fact the McMurphy should not be in there, he may not be a conforminst like Ratched wants everyone to be but he is not crazy.
Randal is a great character placed in the oddest of situations. Being placed there on be half of his own will, somewhat but he did put himself there. Knowing that he is truely not crazy he thinks it is going to be a breeze. Yet he soon finds out the ward is deeper than he thought as some aspects start to reflect on him. Though not crazy the rules of the ward and their corrupt policies apply to him as well, which is soon going to find out the hard way.
I agree with chloe's power hunger statement of McMurphy and how he seeks dominance over some new terrain. But this sets up only future conflicts because the only one in power is Big Nurse. So with the game on her side its a power struggle between the two but now Mcmurphy is going to have to play by her rules.
Though it seems McMurphy isnt insane, or at least more sane than the others his character at points seems to conflict with this. Going to a ward to get out of a work farm isnt ones first choice. That right there just seems a little crazy. Maybe back then people didnt know what it was like in their as much as they do nowadays and how difficult it can be to get out. It doesnt matter how you feel about your mental state but how society views it and whether its acceptable or not, which is all determined by the staff.
I probably couldnt put a name to anyone lost in their own personal fog but rather groups of people that are. Such as strict religous fanatics who are very closed mind and see everything revolving around their own religion, even the lives of others come into this game. You don't even have to be a religous fanatic rather just be closed minded enough to not see others points of view or incentives.
I agree with the interest of Bromdens's narration posted by Maura. He sees and hears everything, sometimes even deep analysis, of what goes on in a ward that everyone thinks hes deaf and dumb. It adds a lil' flavor too to the story that we cant always take his words for the truth since hes in such a dillusional state.
The acutes in this book serve as Mc murphy's transition from being a ruthless con man and solider to becoming not so much a martyr but more of a role model or someone to look up to for the men in the ward
Whats the thing with the thermometer actually I don't even think i want to know, all im saying is i think its really weird.
This book seems to have a much more engaging plotline unlike the last two books that we've read. It actually seems like something will happen in this book WOO HOO!
I have some other stuff to say about this section even though I am way ahead in the book .
The Acutes could be simply monkeys in a nut shell. I do what the nurse with "expirement" done to them and something going with the "expirements" they turn into Chonics where are bascily mush and need help with stuff.
In addition to Doug, Bromden does seem like he sees and hears everything. Maybe there's another reason though. Sometimes people are used to being right there and Bromden is just sitting back and looking at the entire picture.
I don't really understand the "fog" but in response to Doug, I think the people confined and rather not see any other views but their own. They want to have their way and then they don't see where other are coming from.
In response to stevsie, I agree with McMurphy's transition. He comes into the ward and is all about himself. But somewhere, he changes. Instead of it being about him, he shows that he is patient with the other people and becomes their role model.
Post a Comment