If you read tonight, you know that a major event has occurred on the ward. Do you think that this event will be significant to the growth of the characters? How have their actions changed? To whom do you attribute the change? AND -- Give me some examples of the way that Kesey has been and continues to be a misogynist (keep in mind what you just read).
ENJOY! Sorry it's late, the power has been out!
165 comments:
What I find funny is that when Chief tells them abotu how McMurphy is holding out in the Disturbed they don't fidn it the least bit strange that the man who never spoke a word is tellign them stories
In response to sapphire- I think that the ward in general has gotten used to "out of the ordinary" things happening, so when Chief starts telling them stories, it doesn't really phase them.
Okay, So far major events would include, Chief and McMurphy going through EST, the other patients questioning McMurphy's motives, and the patients inviting harlots into the ward. Alot of changes have occured. Billy has finally faced his fears and opened up to Candy, I believe. The Chief which was amazing by the way fought back some of the orderlies alongside McMurphy. Harding and the chief by the end realized that they are going to stick it to the hospital. Harding is going to legally leave, and the chief is going to try to escape. Chief perhaps out of all of them has grown the most, he has spoken to McMurphy, has opened up his conserns, and has taken action to fight the combine. This has all occured because of the individual patients resistance to the temptations of the Nurse's seducing comments on McMurphy, and by the end were completely supportive of him.
By the way did anyone catch the argument Harding made about McMurphy's right to make a little profit off of them. Does anyone disaggree with the statement that America is designed for people to make profit off of others? I just thought that was interesting because it not only raises a moral issue but a political issue as well.
I love the part when McMurphy volunteers himself to go first. It gives him more credablilty towards his leadership and he reassures Bromden. I think because he had never been on EST, this event with him going first, shows a sign of naive bliss.
Even though Kesey has shown intimidating dominate women, like Chief and Billy mother's and N.R, he does introduce the Japanese Nurse who is the extreme opposite. She actually puts balance between the women Nurses in the hospital, like Yin and Yang,by acutally caring for the paitents and even remebering Chief's liking towards gum.
On Alex's issue, many immigrnats who origianlly came over here (my father included) states that that is the American way. When a catastrophy hits people are usually out there to make a profit, like when Mt. St. Helens was about to erupt: many towns people just sold merchidise off to the tourist even though the geologist stated that much of the area is a danger zoen that could blow off in any minute. I think Kesey just brings up the statement that if the opporutnity and climate is right, anyone can make a buck.
In response to Saphire...
I agree how Kesey contrasts the different women in the novel. Instead of being subtly overpowering like the Nurse, this one seems to have more of a caring heart for the patients.
A misogynist, after researching means a hatred of women. I wouldn't say Kesey completely hates women but he does tend to insinuate how he doesn't like a mother-knows-best attitude from society. He believes in the human's capability to take care of oneself, without the guidance of another. Women tend to be associated with the opposite of this due to the position they have been placed in history, involving ideas like the cult of domesctisity. Women have been placed in a position where their domain includes morality, hygeine, etc. Kesey does use examples in which women are more open like the harlots and the one nurse in the Disturbed Ward to contrast against a more motherly figure like Nurse Ratched.
In response to Sarah jess I agree that the author does poirtray women in the novel so far either as terrible human beings (Nurse Ratchet) or like a motherly figure as the other nurses are described as. This brings up the ? was Kesey's childhood possibly impacted by a woman like Nurse Ratchet, similar to how Hemingways mother dressed him up like a girl when he was an infant.
In response to Alex Bott and his comment about how America was desgined for people to get rich off of each other, I don't believe this is a moral or political issue, but jsut the nature of capitalism.
As they go on the fishing trip, Chief Notices the Levitt town style houses and acknowledged that everything has an orderly pace and well strung like an oiled machine. By comparing the outside atmosphere with the hospital clear distinguishes the 60's culture of breaking free from societies rule. So, in turn, it can also symbol breaking free from the combines rule as they basically pirate a ship, have an interesting battle with fish ( I know my deep sea fishing trips were never like that) and showing that the Doctor was strong enough to toughen it out and brow his own back bone. Everyone basically grows on the trip because it is not man against man or society anymore; it was man against nature and a lot of fish.
I think that Chief's and McMurphy's trip to the Disturbed Ward was significant to the other characters because it made McMurphy a legend and showed the others patients that the nurse can be defeated without McMurphy even being there. Also, the girl's coming onto the ward was significant to Billy. I think that Billy's "relationship" with Candy has definately boosted his confidence and made him grow apart from his mother, who continues to baby him & treat him like a kid. Now he knows what an actually relationship with a woman, other than his mother, is like. McMurphy is responsible for the growth of the characters. Harding has become a better leader (ex: When M.M. is drunk and the ward needs to be cleaned up, Harding steps up to the plate and comes up with an idea in order for the situation to be a win for everyone). Chief has also learned to open up, not just to M.M. but to other patients on the ward. I think Chief is also becoming a leader figure because he says that after M.M. leaves, he wants to stay a couple weeks after to keep things in order and to make sure they don't go back to the way they used to be.
I agree with Alex in which Chief has grown the most in the book so far. I mean use to be pushed around and said nothing or did nothing defend himself or have oridinary conversations; but now he talking to McMUrphy and fighting for what he belives in, and going on that fishing trip. He is defintily not the same person he use to be.
On the ship when McMurphy is laughing at the men, he's allowing them to actually, I guess, redeem themselves from not being able to protect Candy from the catcalls at the docks. He knows that he won't always be there to help them walk, so just like any mother animal, he allows them to fend of the in wild jungle that us life and use their own strength to survive instead of his own. And since we now know that MM is the goose that plucked the birds out of the cuckoos nest, the boating trip was actually their first attempt of flight…just only on water.
I agree with Sara Jess about McMurphy showing more leadership when he vlunteers to go first. I think one of the main things said about growth is when Chief says, "I will no longer hide in the fog." I just took that he's not as timid as he was in the beginning- always hiding to never be seen.
I think it's funny how Nurse Ratched still has so much control over the patients after all the things they've done. She just suggests that McMurphy is cheating them and they all start to doubt him.
I think it's great how Chief is finally standing up for himself and McMurphy. He's fighting for what he believes in and he cares about McMurphy. He is starting to believe in himself too. He finally has a purpose in his life.
I thought it was interesting how the plan for McMurphy's plan for escape did not work out. Truckle was supposed to wake McMurphy up at six o' clock, but at six-thirty, McMurphy was found still sleeping with Sandy. I believe that there are two possible reasons as to why Truckle did not wake up McMurphy: Truckle fell asleep (he seemed tired the whole night) or he planed on not waking up McMurphy at all. I am guessing that Nurse Ratched is going to come up with some plan to ruin McMurphy even further.
Billy has really grown.He finally faced his fears and opened up with Candy. But will happen with Billy when Ratched find out what went on with Candy and Him?
Chief, I think, really showed improvement.He went from being a quiet,"def and Dumb" guy who didn't want to deal with anything. To someone that proved that he talks and lisens to everyone and shows that he is here to help with changes. To a repelous dude that will stick it to the hospital along side with McMurphy. He will open up with concern and have the will power to battle the combine with support of McMurphy.
Is Randle's sudden "exhaustion" signifying that he is becoming humble. Once they came back from the fishing trip everyone was commenting on how he was rowdy as usual, but maybe he's just maturing.” (just wanted to move it into the section) It may show that everyone is finding a purpose in life instead of each character being that lost/mad/gamester/do noting in the beginning. Even though he McMurphy knows that his purpose in life is to help the others, like Erin said about Chief, maybe he is sacrificing his own mental state and physical health (almost like his is sacrificing himself). He is to the point that he will willingly wanting to endure the EST so he can show that he is stronger than the ward; no matter what Nurse Ratched does to him, he’ll always be the hero in everyone’s eyes.
For David, maybe Turckle was just plain out drunk and knocked out for the rest of the night. The only reason why he let in Candy and Sandy was because he agreed with McMurphy that he was going to get laid, but MM reassured Billy that Turckle would be out before he would let anything happen
I loved how McMurphy stood up to the nurse and discribed all the EST procedures as just charging his battery. However although he is saying that none of their treatments will effect them, the nurse wants a permanent change in his character and take his glory. Something is going to happen at the end and i feel the Nurse will prevail.
Chief has changed the most. He finally acted out and stood up against all the power the ward used to have over him. When they gave him the EST treatments he explained that their had been times that after shock treatment he would walk around in a foggy haze, but this time he got out of it in less than a day. This is showing that he is growing from the timid and self- victimizing person he used to be. He has broken out of his shell.
I agree with Catherine.
Without McMurphy, Chief probably wouldn't be in the position he is at the end of the book. Instead of making decisions in his mind and not acting upon them, now, he is acting upon his decisions and becoming open about his thoughts.
I agree with Catherine. The way RPM just shakes off the EST like their nothing just gets deeper under the nurses skin and shows how he will always be defiant.
Overall I believe all of the characters action have changed becuase earlier in the book if they had been presented with the thought of defying the Big Nurse and sneaking out at night there is no way they would have agreed to that. RPM has changed them, and has given them confidence to act out.
I agree with Catherine. The way RPM just shakes off the EST like their nothing just gets deeper under the nurses skin and shows how he will always be defiant.
I dont want to ruin the end of the book, so I'll make this not too detailed.
But, do you think Nurse Ratched made McMurphy the way he is, so she could control him for the rest of his life on the ward?
I agree with Catherine too. Chief is the character that has changed the most. At the beginning of the book, he as an afraid quiet person with no self esteem. He was even labeled a Chronic. Now he is out in the world talking to other people and has self esteem.
Does anybody think that was not really McMurphy? One person peeled back a sheet of tattoos. If that is really McMurphy, why was he wearing fake tattoos? The patient pulled the tattoos off McMurphy right?
In response to Jacqee, I believe that Nurse Ratched did what she did to McMurphy to have control over him through the rest of his life. I also believe that Nurse Ratched did not want to be defeated, so she took the easiest route to have a win over McMurphy. Nurse Ratched might have also not wanted McMurphy influcing any future patients.
I also agree with Catherine and G money that Chief has grown a lot. At the begginging of the book he was very shy and wouldn’t stand up for himself but now he actually believes in things and speaks his mind. Also in response to G money I believe Billy has also changed a lot. Its good that he finally opened up to Candy.
In response to d.s., I am not sure if one of the patients actually peeled off a tatoo. It said peeling back the sheet, so I am thinking that one of the patients rolled up McMurphy's sleves or moved a blacnket that was covering him to look for any evidence that suggest that the unlively figure is not McMurphy.
When we read two nights ago, I loved the part where instead of Cheif allowing the fog to overcome him after the electiric shock treatment, he decides to mentally come out of it, and not let it take over him. He said how sometimes it would be weeks where he would be in that state of mind. This time, the Chief says "i had them beat"
I don't know if this part of Chief would have come out this way if McMurphy hadn't come into his life.
I agree with Jacque's comment earlier as well. I think that Nurse Ratched knew she had control over McMurphy all along, but he involved the patients in on his lives and they changed their actions because of McMurphy. If McMurphy hadn't affected and changed the patient's lives and the way they think so much, then Ratched probaly wouldn't have gotten so angry with McMurphy since she knows she can keep him in there as long as she wants.
I agree with what maura is saying. Since McMurphy has to follow Nurse Ratched's rules in order to stay in the ward, he encourages the other patients to act out. They are reluctant at first without McMurphy's support, but soon after McMurphy returns to breaking the rules (and some glass), the other patients follow his example. For instance, when McMurphy gets in a fight in the shower room with one of the black boys, Bromden helps by taking out another black boy who tried to restrain McMurphy.
One example that Kesey continues to be a misogynist (which is one who hates, mistrusts, or dislikes women) is when McMurphy brings the two prostitutes to the ward. By showing that the two ladies were brought in solely to satisfy the men (particularly Bibbit), Kesey hints that one of the roles of women is to please other men.
I thought tonight's reading was really interesting. I didn't see McMurphy's death coming, I thought after his incident with nurse he wasn't going to come back. I figured he was out in the world for good, but this isn't the case. It is almost tragic how the Ward overcame McMurphy and he was ultimitly defeated by it.
Answer to g-money's question:
When Ratched finds out that Bibbit and Candy had sex in the Seclusion Room, she threatens to tell Bibbit's mother. Bibbit then falls into shambles, pleading to Ratched not to tell his mother (one of the "ball-cutters" in the book). After Ratched sends Bibbit to the doctor's office, Bibbit cuts his throat.
The whole event shows a lot of growth and at the same time a lack of growth for Bibbit. He grows by having sex with Candy, but shows his lack of growth when he kills himself just because Ratched was going to tell his mommy that he (a 31 year old man) had sex.
What i found really interesting was the fact that when Bibbit was first found in the seclusion room, he WASN'T stuttering. But after Nurse Ratched mentioned his mother and how she was going to tell on him, He began to stutter again. I think thats a huge way that Kesey is a misogynist because it proves that Bibbit's mother was really what was holdin ghim back (ball cutter) and it seemed like the minute she came back into the picture, he lost all of his confidence and fell back into the Nurse's "spell".
Alli made a really strong point about how Bibbits stuttering came back once his mom was mentioned. Also, toward the end when the nurse comes back after getting strangled by McMurphy the Chief notices that her uniform is tighter and more form fitting which shows she is a women. This is contradictory to the beginning of the book when they talked about the way her uniform was pressed and crincled. It shows that she still didn't have control over the ward.
I agree with Maura's comment above about when Chief comes out of the fog. It seemed to be a huge growth to me because i remember earlier in the book (pg 42) chief says "..one of these days I'll quit straining and let myself go completely, lose myself in the fog the way some other chronics have.." and now he is fighting against it.
The end of the book was actually not too surprising for me. Ever since the "war" between Ratched and McMurphy started, I felt that there was going to be a tragic ending. When Chief smothered McMurphy it showed that he cared about him. He was putting an end to his pain and it wasn't right that M.M. was like that because it wasn't "him." He was just a vegetable now and I think that Chief believed that M.M didn't deserve that and that he thought M.M. would be grateful for what Chief had done. I'm also glad that most of the men left the ward. Two of them left against medical advice, which showed they're strong enough to stand up to Ratched and leave anyways. Overall, I enjoyed reading the book and thought it was really good.
I really liked the end of One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. I had a feeling McMurphy was going to die since the beginning of the book because McMurphy as a Jesus Christ figure had been mentioned several times. I thought maybe he would die somehow as a savior to the patients, but I did not think that Chief would suffocate him .. I think that the Chief thought that killing him was the best thing that he could do for McMurphy. To pay McMurphy back for all he had taught the patients in the ward, Chief ended his life because in reality he wouldn't have a life anymore (since he's brain dead) and he'd be in the hospital with nurse Ratched . Chief couldn't stand to think that the nurse thought she had won over McMurphy, and I think by Chief killing McMurphy, it would end the control that the Nurse had over McMurphy. Especially since Chief killed him this shows the effect McMurphy had on Chief and the patients. Without McMurphy in Chief's life, he probaly wouldn't have gotten out of the there at the end...out of the fog, the confusion, and under the control of the hospital. It's almost like now that McMurphy is dead, Chief wants to carry on what McMurphy taught them all, and the bravery and courage that McMurphy shared with them. Since McMurphy wouldn't have a life anymore as a vegetable, and couldn't escape with Chief, Chief decided that to end his life was the best thing to do.
i don't know, that's what i think. what do you guys think about why the Chief killed him?
I thought the end of the book was somewhat surprising. I definetely didnt think McMurphy would die. Also I really liked Alli's coment about Bibbit's stutter coming back when his mother is brought up. This shows that it was his mother holding back his confidence all along and it makes more sense of why he always seemed so nervous at the beginning of the book.
David, thanks for cleariong that up. it makes more sense now. I think that was really him. I figure chief killed him because he thought RPM would not want to live under Ratched's command/thought he was doing something good for RPM.
I dissagree with the point that Ratched had controll over RPM the whole time. If she was controlling him, he wouldent have influenced the patients at all. He would have just conformed to what they all do. The only time she had any controll over him is when RPM was reminded that if he acts out he might not get out of the ward. He soon broke out of that "spell". She could not controll him so she went to her last resort, a lobotomy.
I disagree.
Ratched did have some sort of mental control over RPM. If RPM wasn't controlled by Nurse Ratched he wouldn't be at the ward.
Yes, while RPM still sometimes played with many roles, he still was controlled by the Big Nurse.
i disagree with jacquee
i think that McMurphy had more control over Ratched then she did over him
I agree with D.S in the sense of nurse ratchet not having control over McMurphy because through out the whole book ratchet was never able to control McMurphy, thats how he was able to make all the patients time at the ward since he arrived there fun, from getting drunk, and going on a fishing trip. If nurse ratchet had control over McMurphy this never would have happend.
Jacquee, RPM is was the ward to be evaluated. She kept him there because he acted out and didn't listen to her im prety sure. Then he became to much to handle and just performed a lobotomy on him.
I was very surprised that Chief suffocated McMurphy at the end of the book.
I guess it was for RPM's sake, since there is no other way Chief and RPm will ever have a relationship again.
The way i look at it. When nurse ratchet performed the labatomy on McMurphy she was finially winning because she had total control of him, and cheif killed him to honor him by making him no longer controlled by ratchet even after the labatomy.
In Response to Saphire, and about the whole women issue that seemed to dominate the classroom discussion today, I would like to say that the story is not strictly a male dominance versus female dominance scenario. Women's traditional role as a moral and ultimatley life authoritarian was created by a male dominated society, to keep a women's sphere seperate from the mens. It was created out of the mist of repression, and it is here that I find that the patients are fighting against. Not specifically a negative female authority but a general sense of a we-know-whats-best-for-you dose of control. It is the collective repression that was started from men leaving the moral teaching to his wife/mother/daughter/etc. That is why their personal liberties are being stripped from them.
I agree with Dan. because it seemed that after the lobotomy, McMurphy just stop who he was and became sort of a vegatable.
In response to several posts in the other section, I think the climax of the story is the party. After the party, everything quiets down. Only a few things of action happen after the party. McMurphy literally exposes Nurse Ratched. He finally won in the end. Sure you can argue that Nurse Ratched won because she gave McMurphy the lobotomy. Though, she had to remove part of his brain to do that to him, and she wasn't even the one to actually do that to him, as far as we know. Even after McMurphy was removed, Nurse Ratched couldn't talk. He actually won, because he got to her by getting under her skin, and not physically stopping her from her actions, like she did to him. He went out with a fight. He finally won the fight.
In response to a lot of different posts. I think it is Stephanie that I agree with from the other section (part 2 and 3), that The Combine is society. I think Kesey made The Combine as a statement to the way society deals with everything. I think he is referring to the 1950's "cookie-cutter" family that was what was percieved as a normal life. "Leave it to Beaver" I think is a good example of this. That show is The Combine. That is the "cookie-cutter" family that makes up The Combine. Society influences everyone, and controls them. The Combine is higher than the government, because it is in the government, and outside the government. Society controls people more than the government. "Social-norms" are something that most people follow, because they want to be accepted. Therefore, The Combine is society in general, because it is not actually there, but at the same time it controls everyone, and has mircophones everywhere. We feel the things we do are weird even if no one is around, because the way society and "social-norms". We base most of our decisions on what society believes. We even make decisions when we are by ourselves on what society says about the situation we are in. It is almost as if we feel that society has microphones ready to have people tie us up if we don't follow what society says. This is what Bromden feels The Combine is.
I think it is an amazing turn of events when Nurse Ratched can't speak. Bromden finally can speak. Almost as soon as Bromden starts speaking, she loses her voice. These changes were both made by McMurphy. It is almost as if McMurphy took Nurse Ratched's voice and gave it to Bromden.
I find it sad that Billy died, but I think it was for the best. I'm actually happy that he died, because he no longer had to deal with his mother of Nurse Ratched. As for McMurphy dying, I think Bromden did the right thing, but I don't think he was actually killing McMurphy. I think that the person lying in the bed was no longer McMurphy, because he no longer had that fight in him. I don't mean literally not McMurphy. I know that it was McMurphy's body, but it was not the same person. How he died, and the events leading up to his death had a lot of christian symbolism. The party was McMurphy's "Last Supper". He was betrayed by one of his followers, not Bromden, but Mr. Turkle. By Mr. Turkle not waking up, he didn't get McMurphy up, which ultimately led to McMurphy's death. He did not purposefully do that to McMurphy, but I do believe that there was that betrayl in there.
zero has good thoughts.
I never would have thought that the events and "party" the night before could be considered as McMurphy's "Last Supper".
Totally symbolic.
i agree with zero. i belive that when billy died it was the best for him to get away from his mom and ratchet who have been causing him so much pain. i am kind of angry with billy for betraying McMurphy when all he was trying to do for billy was make his life a little better by getting him with candy.
In response to dan. i also was pretty mad about killing himself and the fact that he started to stutter again becasue he had come to far and it just seemed to throw it all away
The end of the book really disappointed me. I couldnt believe it when Chief said that McMurphy was really the way he described him. It also kind of disappointed me that Chief left. Yes, its good that he got out of there and all, but i was also almost expecting Chief to fill McMurphy's shoes a little bit around the ward and keep their strength going.
In response to Dan, i agree with your anger towards Billy. When the Nurse cornered him the way she did, it was really aggravating to see him break down and throw the blame on evryone like that. Especially McMurphy. He did so much to bring the guys happiness and some freedom in their lives and it almost reminded me of how it used to be (When everyone would tell on eachother to the Nurse), rather than how it had been since McMurphy got there.
I have the same feeling as Dan's about Billy's bertrayl. I found it dissapointing that Bill decided to accuse Candy, McMurphy, and the other patients for his incident with Candy at the Seclusion room. Perhaps Billy's mother had so much power over Billy that he did not want to risk being in trouble from his mother, and I believe the reason why he commited suicide is because he did not weant to face his mother after being caught with Candy at the Seclusion room.
All through the book the other patients in the ward saw McMurphy as the hero who would set them free from Ratched's complete control over the ward. Like zero said, Chief killing McMurphy only gave McMurphy more honor and prevented him from becoming a helpless vegetable. Also, jaqcuee pointed out the connection to the last supper, and Chief Bromden said that they knew their punishment would come and it would be severe. If McMurphy's goal was in fact to change how things worked in the ward and divert more control to the patients and he died with honor (rather than letting Ratched win), does this make McMurphy a martyr?
Another question.... Who do you guys feel is to blame for Billy's death? Is it McMurphy, Ratched, Bibbit's mother, or was it entirely his choice to kill himself?
i think the everyone had a little affect on Billy's death. The Ward system and Nurse Ratched just made him go insane and hes not the only one, looking at Charles Cheswick and now bibbit. However, the scar on his wrists from an unsuccessful suicide attempt was made when his mother forced him to break off an engagement with a woman sh e felt was socially beneather her son. Billy's mother looked down upon her own son and which affected on his low self-esteem.
As the novel progress, Chief talk less about being in the fog. I think Chief has fully grown by the end of the book. His confidence is returned by McMurpy's "program"
In response to Chief, Nurse Rached is responsible for Billy’s death. She treated him like a child and used his mother against him. Her relationship with his mother was more important than what was best for Billy, Rached didn't have to tell his mom anything but Rached insisted that she did, if she had not done this Billy probably would not have killed himself at this time.
What do you think Chief is going to do now that he is out of the ward?
Do you think the other men are going to follow after him?
In response to jacquee, I believe Cheif will go into the wilderness, searching for remains of his people. As for the other men, I believe they will leave and assimilate back into society, some having a more difficult time than others.
I agree with HEA7ENx3's post about Cheif getting out of the Fog. I think McMurphy helped tremendously with this, but it also took something on the part of Cheif as well.
I also agree with HEA7ENx3 that everyone had a little to do with billy's death. He was in the Ward, around all these people who's parents treated them like any other child. Then there was billy who's mother looked down on him. With this low self-esteem, billy was on a downward spiral. I think McMurhpy helped him with his self esteem, but ultimitly it was Nurse Ratched who brought him down at the end. After he had a good time with Candy, Nurse reminded him of his mother and all his bad memories came pouring back into his head. With these clouding his judgement, billy couldn't take it anymore and killed himself. He couldn't live up to anyone's expectations.
I agree with the last comment, but I think that when someone kills themselves it does not involve other people, only the person who commited the act. Billy was not in the right and healthy mental state, so he thought he would not be able to live his life knowing that his mother would be ashamed at him. Billy's mother held him back from living his life, and Nurse Ratched did not help this either. I hated when Nurse blamed Mcmurphy for what had happened to Billy and Cheswick. I think that those tragedies would have happened either way.
In response to Jacque's comment, I definitely think that other patients will now remember McMurphy and Chief and what they did. I think that McMurphy affected all of the patients lives, and Chief wanted to make sure that the patients remembered not to allow the hostpial to control them.
I think this book is about bringing out the person inside of you, even with the whole world bringing you down or not accepting you. I think that McMurphy being his true self was looked up upon to the patients and in result, they wanted to be like him, but bring their true selves out as well. This is why Chief looked up to him, because Chief felt like he wasn't able to be himself around people, so he led his life pretending to be deaf and dumb. Without McMurphy, the patients wouldn't have gotten the courage to become and grow into themselves.
This also has to do with the rebirth of the patients, and then growing and transcending.
wooahh. i just read someone's comment about the party at the hospital being the last supper? since it WAS McMurphy's last night there? or living his life? i thought that was very intersting...
response to maura
I agree with the last supper thing and that he is having fun for the last time.
Response to alex
I don't agree with americans goal is to get rich off other people. Maybe there are some people, but people all have there part in the world and God put there for a reason.
response to g-dog:
Yes, McMurphy was making the best of that night knowing the severe punishment that would be handed out the next day. I don't think he knew that he was going to die (Jesus knew that he was going to die during the Last Supper).
I think the ending would be better if Chief took McMurphy with him in his esacpe. Not kill him. I mean why kill lives, even when u think it's right. It's never right to murder someone.
Response to G-Money
I agree that Chief really has growned and became his normal self that he thought he never had.
response to g-dog's response to alex: I agree that most Americans feel they have a purpose in life. However, they don't know what that purpose is. They get distracted by the "American Dream." They then begin to feel that they must get rich in order to fulfill their purpose in life (especially an American life). They see that the easiest way to get rich is to get the money from other people, even if it is immoral. This is where other people get the notion that Americans want to get rich off other people.
In response to the last supper thing: wow thats really cool i never thought of the party as McMurphy's last supper
In response to Dan. I also feel a bit angry towards Billy Bibbit's betrayl of McMurphy. I do not fully blame him though. He did not want to have his mother told, so he was trying to find away to not get yelled at. It was a normal reaction that many people would do. It is no necessarily right, but when your mother is as controlling as his, you do not want to get in that kind of trouble with her. In connection with my post about McMurphy's "Last Supper". I think that Billy was the symbol of the follower of Jesus who ended up betraying Jesus, because he was weak. Billy was the one who betrayed McMurphy.
In response to Chief. The symbolism is not perfect. As I have explained in previous posts, I do not think he is a christian hero. He may have some similarities to a christian hero, but I do not think he is one. I find him mainly a western hero. Though, there are references to christian ideas scattered through the book. Because he is not a western hero, and not Jesus, we can't expect McMurphy's "Last Supper" to be the same as the one Jesus had. McMurphy did not speciafically have that party because he knew he was going to die, and he didn't call everyone to the party. Everyone joined in on there own. He only set up the date with Billy. The party became the "Last Supper". He didn't know that he was going to die, but again he is not Jesus. However, he did martyr himself for everyone else, and risked his own life knowing full well what could happen to him, and he went to the nurse and ripped her shirt off, and tried to strangle her. He knew what he had to do, and he knew the trouble he was getting himself into. So during the party, he did not know it was going to be his last, but he did know that he was going to get a punishment as bad, or worse than death when he went to kill the nurse. He risked his life for those patients.
Response to G-dog even though killing McMurphy was wrong but with the lobotomy he had, McMurphy would not be able to think for himself i think Chief did a good thing. I think he killed McMurphy so he would not suffer the pain he later.
In response to G-dog, McMurphy dying actually benefited the ward. McMurphy was the symbol of the patients freedom and rebellion and if they saw him after the lobotomy they would have felt hopeless again. With McMurphy dead he has become a martyr and effected most of the remaining patients for the better
I disagree with gdog too. RPM would not be himself after the lobotomy. It would make sense if he escaped with him before the lobotomy but not after. I think it shows that chief has grown and he doesn’t need RPM any more. Not that he just used him and killed him, he felt RPM wouldn’t want to live under Ratched’s power.
I agree with d.s. that Chief wouldn't have left Mcmurphy with Nurse Ratched. He did what was best for McMurphy because he didn't want McMurphy to be a Vegetable for the rest of his life.
I really loved the ending of this book, it was kind of surprising. I didn't think that Chief was going to kill McMurphy. I'm really glad that Chief could escape and start leading a normal life and all the other patients could leave the hospital.
I was just reading Alex Bott's second post and felt the need to respond- I also noticed that argument and thought how true it was. Today, we pay for things just for our own enjoyment, it is almost as if that is what the patients did with McMurphy.
In response to zero's second to last comment- I think it was really wrong for Bibbit to turn McMurphy in like that. Throughout the whole story, we hear about how Bibbit wants to get with a girl but never has enough confidence. He FINALLY gets with a girl and finds out that he might get in trouble for it.
The way I think about it is, you should never regret something you once thought was a good idea. Bibbit basically blamed McMurphy for something that Bibbit had wanted to do really bad.
If getting with Candy was as important to Bibbit as it sounds, he should have shook off what he knows his mother would say.
i agree with erin.
i really liked the ending, but it would have been cool if McMurphy got to go with Chief
I am not sure that the last supper is the same, although it is similar. McMurphy was lobotomized because of he strangled the nurse. I'm not sure he planned on trying to kill her before he had the party, I think he was just trying to show everyone in the ward a good time. With Billy's death and the Nurse's actions I think McMurphy lost control and his violent ways before coming into the ward came to the surface.
In response to Natalie, I agree with you that Billy definitely should have held his ground and not broken up like he had. I think this is one of the reasons he committed suicide. He was afraid of what the nurse might tell his mother and he was ashamed of how he had sold out his friends who tried to help him.
in responce to apurva i totally agree with him that billy shouldnt have broken down like that. Before he broke down he was finally improving by standing up for himself and also not stuttering. but it was a dissapointment when he started freaking out when ratchet brought his mom into the picture.
Zero: Last Supper comment is a popular one in this book. Run with it.
Natalie and Sapphire: Is out of the ordinary what most of us seek?
All: Was Billy's death the cause of McMurphy's or was that inevitable if he stayed on the ward? Would Bromden have left if Bibbit lived and McMurphy stayed? Was that just a culminating event?
I think that Billy's death was the cause of McMurphys becasue of his death and on top of that when McMurphy tried to kill ratchet. I also think that cheif would not have left even if billy lived because of how cheif wanted to escape with McMurphy. And it was a culminating event because if billy didnt die McMurphy wouldnt have tried to kill ratchet, and if that didnt happen he most likely McMurphy wouldnt have had a labatomy done to him.
I read yesterday but 4got to post... but the part with Bibbit really irritates me... it's like he spoke out against his friends which was so wrong, but even thinking that it would solve anything was immature. -The Nurse's actions were inevitable...
It makes me feel let down because it was just plain stupid.
but i do admit that i like the fact in how McMurphy redeemed some credability by attacking the Nurse...
i also noticed another difference between the film nd the novel...
although it's minor...
bibbit was dead in the doctor's chair in the book while in the movie he was sprawled out on the floor...
sorry, couldn't help but notice
I disagree that it is the same as the last supper. It does have its similarities but I think it was more showing how everybody grew into being each others friends more than being there just for RPM.
sorry g-dog,
beg to differ,although sad but true...
-americans do seek to get rich off of eachother...
everyone makes a profit depending on the people!
Look at the ACT's!
Look at the competitive struggles!
-Stocks!
-Doctors!
-Artists!
-Realators!
think of any job... nd how you compete for the money...
scientists- they're up against others in their field who are making the money for their discoveries!
race car drivers ;D - they compete against expert drivers for sponsor programs and personal wealth through contracts!
Filmmakers- they hire the actors so that they can cash in a movie that will bring in the big bucks!
...if there were no people involved in your field, you either wouldn't have the competition or the consumers who need your product...
Billy’s death was the cause of McMurphy's death. Ratched blaming RPM for Bibbit to killing himself sent RPM over top. It made him snap and then he strangled her. Then she gave RPM a lobotomy and chief felt compelled to kill him. But.. you can link Bibbit’s death to Ratched. Ratched used blackmail and punishment to control everyone, she toyed with them. She did not know what she was doing and she pushed Bibbit over the edge. So Ratched is the one who is responsible for all of their deaths.
I agree with Maura about the party at the hospital being the last supper thing. Its really interesting to point out and because it was significant to McMurphy's life in the ward.
Teschner asked the question in class if anyone was a little upset with the ending...?
I believe Billy's death was inevitable. He had always shown signs of being suicidal, such as a low level of self confidence, and it would only be a matter of time until he buckled under the pressure of Ratched's threats and his fear of his mother's view of him.
I personally thought it was the best ending b/c it showed that even with McMurphy gone, his legacy against revolting still lived on through the patients and it showed when Chief escaped!!
in response to d.s. i dont fully agree that billy's death was the cause of McMurphy's death. I think after McMurphy suffocate her for awhile, she almost lose all her control, untill she was relase from him, getting help from Washington, the black staff. Since she has no physical power to pay back McMurphy's behavior, she used the ward's beneifit of using the machine to kill his brain, making him into a vegetable state. That was really sad, especially in the movie scene.. he was like deadish.. looking..
In response to Deegz, I thought the ending was a good culmination of the book. It showed how each patient had grown by leaving the hospital in one way or another. Harding and Bromden showed the most growth in my opinon by overcoming their problems that put them in the hospital in the first place.
i agree with deegz44. i think McMurphy's death was more signifcant because Chief had kill him. Its show that they both really free themselves. Also because of McMurphy's death, many patients gained their courage to be their ownself. As for harding, he was finally able to leave the ward with his wife, having more confidence .
In response to apurva. It will not be exactly like the Last Supper. It was McMurphy's "Last Supper", because he and all the patients drank and were merry. They knew he was going to leave in the morning. It was almost as if it was about him. They were having fun with him for the last time. Sure it was not all about him. It was about all the patients, and their breaking the rules, and finally being happy. Though, he was a major part. He organized the party, by bringing Candy. He was going to leave in the morning. They all knew he was going to get blamed for everything. Harding even knows that McMurphy will be blamed, so he comes up with a plan to get McMurphy to escape. He is giving McMurphy an exit. They did not start the night knowing what was going to happen, but as the night went on, they all knew that McMurphy had to leave. The party was their celebration with him, and everything he did while there. It was a party for all of them, but especially for the departure of McMurphy.
I agree with Hea7enx3 that both McMurphy and Chief were freed in a way. McMurphy had helped everyone with their problems and helped Harding gain enough confidence to go home with his wife and he helped Chief finally leave the ward where he had been for such a long time.
It is hard to say whether or not Billy was the cause of McMurphy's death. I think that Billy's death led to McMurphy attacking Nurse Ratched, but whether or not McMurphy would have had that lobotomy anyways is hard to say. I think that Billy was not fully wrong in his decision to try and pass the blame. Nurse Ratched already knew it was McMurphy. Billy was just trying to avoid confrontation with his mother, because although Nurse Ratched was defeated, the woman that got Billy in there in the first place was not beaten, and would still be haunting Billy his entire life. He did not want to give his mother another reason to be mad at him. If he had asked McMurphy if it was ok, I'm sure McMurphy would have agreed it was the best idea to try and avoid it, because McMurphy had no one that was going to be told. Almost anyone in the situation that Billy was in would have done the same thing, because McMurphy had nothing to lose. When you have someone controlling your life, you don't want to give them another reason to torture you. You don't want them to have anything else to use against you. It is no easy situation to be in.
I THINK THAT THROUGHOUT THE BOOK CHIEF DID CHANGE THE MOST BECAUSE IN THE BEGINNING HE REALLY WAS NOT A BIG PART OF THE BOOK AND THEN IN THE END HE BECAME ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTERS. HE FIRST STARTED OFF AS "DEAF AND DUMB" AND THEN HE OPENED TO MCMURPHY A LOT AND GAINED HIS SELF CONFIDENCE TO ESCAPE OUT OF THE WARD.
I AGREE WITH SAPPHIRE'S FIRST COMMENT HOW SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT CHIEF TELLING THEM STORIES, I THINK THAT IS ALSO A FUNNY PART BECAUSE IN THE BEGINNING HE USED TO NEVER TALK.
The ending of the book was unpredictable. In the beginning we learned that almost all the characters were unable to live their lives, Nurse Ratched had complete control over them. By the end it is renewal or a baptism for Bromden and Harding but others as well. Harding is able to live with his wife, the one block in his life that kept him from living a normal life. Chief broke out of his shell and escapes. Although McMurphy had to die it gives the new patients submitted to the ward another chance to take control.
i think overall, not only McMurphy played a big impact on peoples lives, Billy was what really started this whole impact on the ward. After his incident, the whole ward just speed up, again said, most patients in the ward at least gained something, due to their deaths.
I agree with Catherine, that the ending of the book was unpredicatlbe. What would've happen if McMurphy was alive and had escaped with Chief? If that were to happened, I don't think that people in the ward would've gained what they had gained. Looking at people's influence on life on another, influencing the whole ward. So I think Kesey made the ending was really interesting, also it was a good way to wrap up things.
I agree with diegles comment on the ending of the movie, how even though McMurphy dies his legacy will live one with all that he affected. also i thinks that bromden reconized that mcmurphy couldn't live like that, as a vegtible, and put him out of his misery.
I agree with Jack Ramathorn, that Bromden couldn't just let someone who gave his life back to live his life as a vegetable. Also he knew that Nurse Ratched would use McMurphy as to control people in the ward and even the future patients. I think Chief really played a role on that.
i also agree with Jack Ramathorn because of how cheif was putting McMurhy out of his misery and also because he knew thats what he would have wanted so that nurse ratchet could never conrtol him.
I also agree with Catherine that the end of the book was unpredictable, and that most of the characters moved on to bigger and better things. Unfourtantley it took the death of RPM for this to happen. However I do not agree with her last sentence because I don't believe taht RPM's death has anything to do with future patients.
Well I disagree to disagree with FAVRE4EVER, because if McMurphy was still there then the other patients would see what happenes when you rebel against the nurse. Now that McMurphy is dead they would have a chance to take control if they wanted to.
I agree with Dan, Chief only did what McMurphy would have wanted. McMuphy would not have wanted to be an example of what could happen to the Acutes for the rest of his life. Cief was puting him out of his misery.
I can agree with Catherine's last sentence, that it will be easier for newer patients to take control with RPM dead instead of a living vegitable, proof that you can't succeed if you go up against Ratched.
Catherine you post does not make any sense. You say that if RPM was there then future patients would have an example of what happens when somone rebels, but then you also say that becuase RPM is not their that future patients have a chance to take control of the ward. Which one is it???
I am not upset with the ending. I really liked it. It showed chief’s growth. I’m glad it wasn’t one of those endings that leaves it up to the reader to think what happened next.
I agree with Mitzy. RPM would not want the Chief living in the ward the rest of his life, and would want for him to be out in the real world and free.
Yes Favre thats what im saying when McMurphy would be there as a vegetable the other patients that come to the hospital would know not to rebel against Ratched.
Why did Chief have to break the window with the huge control panel wasn't he there voluntary?
I agree with Josh K, new patients now have an easier job taking control of there lives. Now Nurse Ratched is no longer an all powerful person, she has been defited and she no longer has the power to control the men as she once did.
hey favre4ever what catherine is trying to say is that ratchet wiuld show to future patients what would happen if they tried to over through her power in the ward, and that since McMurphy is now dead ratchet wont have proof that she can make peoples lives hell is they dont listen to her. clear things up a little?
KK gotcha Catherine. In respone to the second part of your post I think that the chief broke the window open witht the huge control panel becuase it was symbolic of how McMurphy would have left the ward.
Do you guys think that the acutes (or any of the patients) still at the ward will continue to follow what RPM was doing or do you think they will soon become controlled by Ratched again?
in responce to catherine i dont think cheif was there volentary, and the reason why he broke out with the giant thing is because thats what McMurphy wanted to do.
In response to Catherine, No Chief wasnt there voluntary. He was there because he's a Chronic known to have schizophrenia
in resonce to d.s. i think that the remaining patients at the ward will try to follow rpm but be hesitent to do so because they saw what ratchet did to rpm
I honestly dont think Chief needed to be there..
To me he seemed perfectly fine.
I think being there helped him overcome his doubts. I think he needed to be there in order to grow.
wow!! i was totally shocked by the end of the book...my first reaction was dissapointment. i wanted mcmurphy to escape and be able to live his life. but after talking about it in class today and rereading the ending..it actually does make a lot of sense. Mumurphy was fighting against nurse and the cruel ward for the patients. in the end, when all the patients play their card games without mcmurphy is shows how much mcmurphy has taught and influenced them. they also step up against the ward and change some of the rules which shows thier increased confidence. mcmurphy's death also shows that is did turn out to be the martyr that nurse talked about earlier in the book becasue he stood up for what he believed in and took the consequences (death) of fighting against nurse and the ward.
in response to jacquee: i think chief did have reasons for being in the ward. although it was hard to tell becasue the story was told from his narration, i think chief did have some emotional and psychological issues from being in the war and dealing with the death of this parents at such an early age. i think chief being in the hospital helped him regain his confidence and restore some sense of peace in his mind. although he was tourchered and shocked often, i think these treatments allowed him to see the importance of his life and enjoying the time he had when he was thinking straight...idk thats just my opinion but i do think that being in the hospital and meeting mcmurphy helped chief in some way
In response to Catherine,
But i don't think Chief had a clue at the beginning of the book that he was going to be so fully influenced by a man, RPM. Yes it has changed him, but why did Chief enter the ward in the first place?
I liked the ending becuase it did not follow the usual standards, and although the main character did die the rest of the characters seemed to move on onto different stages of their life.
in response for the cause of Billy's death: i think billy killed himself out of shame and embarassment. he was soo afraid of how his mom would react to the news and he could not deal with the guilt and pain of breaking her heart. however, i was kinda mad that billy killed himself right away..the nurse might not have even told billy's mom about what happened..she probally would have been too ashamed herself to admit that the patients had alcohol and sex in the hospital ward..then again nurse is so evil she probally would have told on billy anyway...i think after billy died, mcmurphy was willing to sacrifice his life to stand up for billy and finally physically rebel agianst nurse once and for all...actually i think it was better that he was not able to kill nurse. if he fully killed nurse...mcmurphy would seem like this mean character that just tried to get revenge in the end. by having nurse live, kesey was able to demonstrate her loss of power over the patients and show that mcmurphy had won in the end.
Farve i liked it for the same reason, it wasnt your generic ending to a good book, but it goes with the rest of the book, lots of symbolism and reading between the lines
i agree with favre4ever: i think in the end, most of the characters were able to fove foward in their life with the influence of mcmurhy. ex/ harding escaped with his wife, george left the ward, and chief was able to lift the pannel and leave also
Did anyone else feel that since McMurphy died in the end before Ratched even got to really see him suffer, that it wasn't as much of a success at all that she wanted it to be?
i think the ending was very satisfying...it didnt leave any loose ends..we werent left wondering what happened to any of the characters..on the other hand, it didnt flat out tell u what happened..like how chief killed mcmurphy u had to kind of figure it out yourself...but i think the book did a good job explaining chief's motives behind killing mcmurphy in the end..so it didnt make mcmurphy's death seem like a bad thing..but like chief was relieving him of the ward and the nurse
i think i agree with josh k but im a little confused what ur asking...r u saying that nurse didnt really get to feel like she won because she didnt see mcmurphy suffer like he did?? if thats what u were saying then..yeah i agree. nurse sent mcmurphy to have a lobotomy cause she wanted him to know that she still had control over him and put fear into the other patients--chief doesnt want nurse or the patients to see mcmurphy like that and thats why he kills him right away...
i think stephanie i totally right, there were no topics left in the book for us to keep wondering about. It was straight and to the point, and i really like that about this ending.
the ending was very satisfying to chief and mcmurphy. obviously chief didnt want miss ratched to have the great comfort of seeing mcmurphy suffer at her feet and her being able to control him. even though chief suffocated him, he did the right thing to cut off the satisfaction of miss ratched's future power that she will never have over mcmurphy.
lol this blog is pretty funny, i feel bad for teschner, lot of people trying to meet the dead line, hahahah
Dan I would have to agree with you about there being no questions left to ask, but even though there is no offical answer, everyone will probabley wonder what happens to all the main charaters after they have returned to there "free" lives, and if theycan handle being out of the combine.
Yes, Stephanie that's exactly what I was asking, and you even put it into better words than I could. And I also never saw this ending coming, usually when I read a book that has a bad ending, like The Sun Also Rises had, I always end up thinking of a better one, this one just fits perfectly.
In responce to Jack Ramathorn, you bring up a really good point, even though the patients had the courage to stand up for themselves an leave the ward will they really make it out on their own in the real world?
I agree they have been relying one the ward, even though they didnt like it, reminds me of the Shawshank Remdemption, where the prisoners get out of prison, but can survive on there own, one guy even hung himself.
yeah i totally agree with u
That's a really good point, i personally feel like the patients will lose their confidence in the real world. Its easy for them to stand up for themselves and feel powerful in the ward when they all have eachother's backs at this point, but as soon as they enter the real world, it seems to me like they'd "shrink" as bromden would say.
i think that in the end, the patients didn't go back to how they used to act before mcmurphy got there. even though he is gone they still keep a piece of him there. mcmurphy impacted each of them in some way and they show it even after he's gone.
i wasn't exactly surprised at the end, but it was sad when mcmurphy died. i think that he did win the battle in some way. he proved he wasn't afraid and did what he could to lessen Ratched's control.
he had a chance to escape but he couldn't leave. that shows how he's grown. he cared about the others and didn't just think of himself.
mcmurphy showed that ratched will never have power over him. and then he had a lobotomy. but that didn't mean in my view that she won. at first i didn't understand why chief killed mcmurphy. he never got to escape from the ward but in someway he did by his death. chief thought mcmurphy wouldn't want to live in a bed for the rest of his life and so chief took away his pain. he touched all of them and maybe being placed in the ward was okay. the ward made him change and through his change, he changed the rest of them.
i liked the ending alot.
chief proved to miss ratched that she'll never win. and mcmurphy is always something greater.
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