These questions do not all apply to what you have read thus far, you still have to read to answer all of these. But, you could very easily use these questions to guide your posts over the rest of this week. If you have something else you want to address, please do so.
1. What does McMurphy’s conversation with the lifeguard signify? How does this affect the way he behaves on the ward?
2. Who died at the pool? Why is this death significant? How is it important?
3. What happens to Mr. Sefelt at lunch? What does McMurphy learn from it?
4. After Harding’s wife visits, McMurphy reveals his bad dreams. What does he dream about? What could the dreams symbolize for McMurphy’s character?
5. How does EST symbolically fit into the Chief’s perception of the Combine?
ONE-PAGE RESPONSE Worth 25 Points (NO MORE THAN 2.5 pages)
(DUE THURSDAY, MAY 8th @ 3 p.m. via Email or turn it in in class)
In a concise, one-page response, answer the following prompt (REQUIREMENTS=intro w/ thesis, body paragraphs, and conclusion):
If McMurphy is the hero (protagonist) and Nurse Ratched is the villain (antagonist), what role has Chief Bromden played so far? Has Chief Bromden displayed any growth? Be sure to give examples from the text and DO NOT USE "I" in your response.
(Feel free to explore this with posts on the blog. A.K.A. Help Each Other Out)
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167 comments:
I do not know what the cards splashing everywhere like the deck exploded between McMurphy's two trembling hands on pg. 161 might signify. Anyone have any ideas?
I really don't believe that someone dies at the pool,unless i am missing something? Or the only person that was having trouble was the kid from the other ward that had hydrocephalus.
I'm guessing that McMurphy is beginning to crack, the uniform stack of the deck represents a clear cut goal and way of thinking and the explosion foreshadows a big event that will cause chaos (I haven't read that far so it's probaby way off)
I think i got it now!!
Is it Cheswick dies by drowning because he is trying to "escape" but his figure gets caught in the grate and drowns.pg 151. It signifies Cheswick trying "escape" and also to be like McMurphy when McMurphy did the same by going to the bottom of the pool and trying pulling on the grate out but did get his figures stuck. Not really sure if that is what it signifies.
G-Money...
I never really thought about there being symbolism within Cheswick's death. I think the escape scenario could be possible, but then again, how would he escape by trying to pull up a grate? I mean, most likely, since he's at the bottom of a pool, the grate would not lead to anywhere. I get what your saying, but there might be other possibilities.
I got a different interpretation of the symbolism of Cheswick's death. Cheswick was the only patient that continued to make a fuss in the ward after McMurphy started to become quiet. BUt because he died, I believe it symbolized the fact that the idea of making a fuss without McMurphy has died off among the Acutes. Perhaps the fog machine is going to fog up the patients' minds again, just like how the fog machines is starting to creep up on McMurphy at the end of page 161. (I do not know if the fog machine is starting to creep up on McMurphy for sure, but that is what I thought)
In response to question 1, I believe that McMurphy's conversation with the lifeguard made McMurphy think. McMurphy knows that in the long run he will lose to Nurse Ratched, and if he continues to make a fuss in the hospital, his time in the ward longer. Because McMurphy does not want to stay in the ward longer than he has to, McMurphy acts quiet and obeys what is expected of him from Nurse Ratched.
I completely agree with David's second post. McMurphy has finally realized that he will not win his bet with the guys about Nurse Ratched. He has finally given in.
I think that McMurphy is stepping into reality, after he talks with the lifeguard he realizes exactly what his actions could lead to. In this moment, it seems to him that everything is leading to a positive outcome (the patients are starting to stand up for themselves, the nurse is not as powerful, etc), but he finally realizes the scary truth that he is not as "free" and "in control" as he thought. The lifeguard points out to him that there is no set time for him to know when he will be able to leave the ward.
To respond to yleinah and agree with sapphire: I think McMurphy is finally realizing that the ward is getting to him. He's found out that Ratched is not one to mess with and doesn't even joke anymore or find that the other patients' jokes are remotely funny. He's done the crime, and all he wants to do now is the time without all that funny business in between.
ok so for the one page response
(im not sure if this is what he means by help eachother but whatever) i think that chief has grown a lot. like he got pulled out of the fog when he rose his hand when they voted for the t.v. and he lets his gaurd down around McMurphy. im not really sure what role he plays. like maybe hes a symbol or something. im kinda lost on that part...
In responce to murph, I agree that Cheif has grown alot, ever since McMurphy has come Cheif has realized that he dosnt need to hide all the time. He starts to see things in a real view.
On page 151, Cheswick drowning and dying symbolizes and is significant, to McMurphy not being able to save him from the Nurse, the ward in general and its policies and ultimatley the combine. When neither him nor the lifeguard are able to pry his hands away from the grate, they were also not able to save him from the system and its ways of killing their civil rights, to protest among many other freedoms.
In his dream McMurphy sees many faces, that is how he pretty much describes it. Perhaps they are faces of the patients, or past people he may have screwed over. He may be feeling guilty for what he has done, if guilt is even necassary, who really knows at this point. All we know is that he completely went silent without telling or warning anyone, and that has ended up with Cheswick dead, by suicide let I remind you, and many others saddened with their loss of leadership.
yeah...so cheswick is the one that dies in the pool. that part was a little confusing but i agree with what alex said. it seems like cheswick killed himself--is that right?? but his death symbolizes the failure of the ward, the nurse and the combine to cure its patients. instead of helping them, they drove them mad and crazy and cheswick could no longer deal with himself. it symbolizes his giving up on mcmurphy as well. even though mcmurphy rebelled, cheswick knows that nothing is going to change the way the ward is--not even mcmurphy--and he is tired of living this horrible life.
I agree with David about Cheswick drowning and dying.
I felt bad about Cheswick.
It's significant because he bascially gave up on his life when seeing McMurphy not helping nor supporting what he was rebeling against before. Cheswick saw a hope (light) through McMurphy's behaviors, leading Cheswick and the other patients to fight for their wants. Now that McMurphy is
"Being Smart"(describe by Cheif), Cheswick realizes that there is no meaning to live up in this evil mental institude where it's obvious that Nurse Ratched has all the control.
in response to g-money way at the top: i agree with the idea that cheswick was trying to escape and the fact that everyone--even mcmurphy-- could not bring him back becasue he wasnt strong enough symbolizes that mcmurphy is not going to be able to overpower the combine and the nurse. he is only one person--and just like he was not strong enough to lift that pannel, he is not strong enough to fight the ward by himself--and even the patients are loosing hope in him... cheswick just gives up
Also, pertaining to the nurse with the birthmark, do we actually know if it is really a birthmark (since it is based through the promotions of the Chief). It’s just the way was initially described that made me think it is more like a scar. If she was raped the maybe the rapist pulled a knife on her and marked her either during or before the rape. It would kind of explain why she tired to rub it off every night, like she wants the memory to go away, but it is permanently marked on her body.
The card also may symbolize McMurphy’s composure and his ability to control himself, just like Nurse Ratchet’s “mask” is shown in front of the patents and ward employees. After the television incident, Chief Notices that the Nurse looked pissed and even the doctors were waiting to see her explode and take her mask off. Gambling, somewhat, give M.M a sense of security and normality with his life, but once you take it away he becomes lost. So the ‘breaking of his cards’ shows that he and the Nurse are at some fracture of a breaking point. He reveled to have had some strange dreams, and some people sleepwalk and get the weirdest dreams when under stress.
Did cheswick really mean to kill himself? Or was his hand getting stuck just a mistake? Everything everyone has said about the symbolism of Cheswick's death makes sense and sounds very true but im a little confused because when I read myself it I didnt think he meant to commit suicide.
I agree with Natalie and David's comment about McMurphy talking with the lifeguard. I think he is starting to realize how much the Nurse does have control over him, he just doesn't see it the way everyone else does. I think he is finally giving the Nurse what she wants, in order for him to shorten his time at the ward.
In response to Jamie's comment:
I personally don't think Cheswick was trying to kill himself. This is another part of the story that Kesey leaves wide open for readers to interpret in their own way. He could have been trying to pry the grate off to escape, but didn't realize his fingers would get stuck. Or he could have killed himself because McMurphy didn't support him in the vote to get the cigarettes back. There is enough evidence to make a case for both.
In response to Jamie and Chief,
I also do not think that Cheswick was committing suicide. His character and personality don't really lead me to that conclusion. I'm having a hard time trying to find symbolism in his death though. To me, it just seems like an accident that he ended up dying from. I can't seem to connect how it would symbolize an escape or McMurphy's lack of power.
Yeah, when I read through the part about Cheswick's death it didn't seem to me that he was committing suicide either. But after reading everyone's posts about it so far it kind of makes me believe that he did commit suicide. Cheswick was like McMurphy's biggest follower. He looked up to him and believed in him. I think that he also started to believe in himself. So when McMurphy started to contain himself and not back him up anymore, Cheswick realized that his boost of confidence was gone.
Response to yleinah
I wouldn have to agree with you and that Chesiweck hero was McMurphy, but not only to CHeswick, but to Chief and pretty much all the guys because they never seen someone like him.
As i agree with chief and hillary, that Cheswick did not commite suicide. Even though Kesey may have left it for the readers to intrept, but maybe was a foolish error, that his fingers got caught. As earlier in the book Cheswick was Disturbed and taken to shock treatmenn. That may haave had an impact on why he drowned.
I think there is a big dissapointment with McMurphy with heading into part 3 with him craing about only himself and him trying to get out. I believe the Nurse is winning over him now and makes him think that he is going to get out.
It seems that alot of people have been pretty much split on the issue of whether or not Cheswick killed himself. They are all good arguments, however as one begins to probe deeper into the two contests, one will also find that it is not a definite yes or no answer. I had brought this up in my class, but perhaps Cheswick really did believe that somehow he could pry open those bars, just like McMurphy tried to do with the panel, and against all better judgement he too tried as well. He most likely also knew that if he committed himself to this task, that their was a possibility of himself dying. With a twisted distortion, he thought that he had a real chance of doing it, and therefore perhaps it was a little bit of both.
In response to about everyone's posts on Cheswick's death. I do not believe it was an accident. While yes, at this point there is no way to tell for sure, the pieces don't fit that it is an accident. To start it off, there are easier methods to try and escape. I know they say in the book that you can't get through the windows or doors, because of the wires and steel doors. Though, I would like to argue that doing anything on ground, like going through a window, is a lot easier than doing anyhting under water. Also, they mention in the book that the grate had to be unscrewed to be taken to the surface. If I was in his situation, trying to escape through a pool grate, i would at least try unscrewing it before I attempt to lift it. Then again, he might have no seen the screws, because water is not the easiest thing to see through. Moving on, last time I checked, the hole that pool grates cover are not the biggest things in the world. I know I cannot fit into one of those holes, so escaping through it would not be the best idea. Then again, they are not the most sane people in the world, so maybe he thought he could fit. Also, they don't mention the fact that he was thrashing around underwater. If he had gotten stuck, he would most likely have fought it, and there was no mention of his fingers getting cut from pulling on his hand to get it out of the grate. Though, he may have realized, underwater, that it was useless to keep fighting the system and he would be better off dying. Also, he was underwater. Ignoring whether or not he could have opened the grate by pulling it or unscrewing it, and ignoring the fact that he probably could not fit into the hole, How far did he think he was going to get in the water. Though, he might not have realized how far he would have to swim. Ignoring whether or not he could or could not have escaped that way, there are other pieces of this puzzle that lead to him committing suicide. It says that the lifeguard and the black boys could not pry his fingers from the grate, but that can be taken in the sense that he was just stuck. I personally take it in the sense that he was holding on. The very last sentance in that chapter says that he was still clutching the grate. This means he was holding on to it, and not just stuck. Even earlier than him getting into the pool though, he said he did not blame McMurphy. He was getting everything off his chest. This is often done by those who are going to commit suidide. They want to get everything off their chest, so they can die without regret. This is exactly what it appears Cheswick is doing. He is telling McMurphy that he doesn't hate him, and that he knows what McMurphy was doing. He also wants McMurphy to know that it he does wish that something had happened, as he says when he gets into the pool. Also, He had been in the Disturbed ward, and I think he finally realized that he was there for life, but what life was he really living if he was stuck in this place. Once he was sent up, he saw what can happen, and he thought that by being sent up there, he was going to be in this place forever. As for the symbolism of his death, I think it shows what that place does to these people. The last thing Cheswick did was hold onto that grate. He held onto the bars of that grate knowing full well in his mind that he was there for life, and that there was no chance for esacpe. Him holding onto those bars symbolizes that there is no escape. They are trapped there. He knew taht by grabbing on he was going to die, but he wanted to hold on to the bars, and look out at the outside world one last time, even though the outside world he saw, was just a drain. It may have been a alst attempt at escape, but I think he knew he was going to die, he just wanted to die trying.
I'm just spitballing here, but in class when we watched the movie clips did anyone notice that McMurphy was the only person in color and then later he turned into white maybe because he was falling into the society (machines) and then in the group therapy when someone talks about of line they are wearing a color not like the rest of the group maybe to symbolize they have some life left and is still fighitng the good fight
In class we talked about if we think Cheswick ment to kill him self, I think that he didnt really mean to die it was just he wanted to "escape" I dont think he understood that there was nothing on the other side. But than again, maybe he wanted to be in the limelight, its kind of like the Christian Hero he sacrifice himself to maybe make things different in the ward.
Dont know if Im right, still kind of confused bout this.
McMurphy's conversation with the lifeguard signifies the turning point in his behavior. The lifeguard tells him that he does not have a set time on the ward so the nurse can make him stay as long as she see's fit. When McMurphy realizes this he changes his behavior and starts acting "good" but the nurse doesn't really acknowledge it. I think that Ratched knew that he would sometime give in and act the way she wanted to because he would eventually realize he could be in there forever.
I agree with yleinah in that when after McMurphy talks to the lifeguard his behavior definetely changes. I think at this part in the story it's when reality really hits McMurphy. He now knows that its not up to him when he can leave the ward and he doesnt have all the control he thought he did.
The EST machine is the one thing that the ward knows will dominate the patients. The Combine signifies the hospitals ability to control hte patients, and isn't that what the EST does. This is what the nurse can rely on to keep her dominance over the patients.
Also i believe that Cheswick knew exactly what he was doing the moment he stepped into the pool room. He decided to take his life because now he will have something that the others will look up to him for. Although, it could be accidental, you don't just accidentaly get your fingers caught in the bottom of a pool. Cheswick wanted to leave something behind and also beat the Nurse before she dominated him.
Cheswick's Death:
[I wonder about his mentality level and knowledge]:
I think that he wasn't trying to commit suicide as it was rather more of fantasy vs. reality.
*Here's my arguement:
(-and yes, I'll state the contradicting statements too, but mainly show how my opinion leads towards this belief).
^Escape Route^
-His mental capacity seems that of a youth, as being immature in nature and not able to comprehend most logical happenings at first.
-He's in the ward enough, so it's easy to conclude his thinking is corrupt in someway.
-By actually contemplating the thought that the filter was an exit, shows his immaturity.
^Suicide Attempt^
-The fact that he's in a restricted facility limits the possibilities of suicide.
-Even while having other opportunities of suicide, how is it that a person of low caliber is able to create such a plot for suicide.
-I mean, it's one thing to jump in a drown if you can't swim, but holding onto the grate seems a little far fetched for me.
If he did intend to hold onto the grate and drown, it is of phsyical nature to involuntarily try to survive! On the other hand, if he wanted to jam his fingers in the grate, how would he know if his fingers were the right size?
Therefore, I think that he was just trying to get away, like a child from a screaming parent,
to escape the reality of the situation:
(When McMurphy didn't cover his back for getting the cigarettes back; he probably felt betrayed).
I know this doesn't affect the story greatly, and it doesn't really matter,
But which would you think it was?
I would have to agree with yleinah and christina about how McMurphy had changed. I beleive that he changed because he is just scared how he might stay at the ward and become like one of the chronics. But after reading up to page 173, I'm just confused
In response to the thoughts above about Cheswick's death, I believe that perhaps Cheswick decided to kill himself, because he has lost faith. McMurphy's rebellious nature showed hope of freedom to the patients, and now that McMurphy does not rebel, Cheswick thought that there was no hope in having freedom nor his life anymore. Cheswick probably thought that there was no point in living anymore and decided to suicide.
McMurphys bad dream is when he they drove by his old house he saw the old rag caught on a tree and it was from the first time he had sex when he was 10. She gave him her dress so he would remember her but he threw it out the window. I think it shows an emotional side of McMurphy because Chief says that he looked like he needed to do something and maybe that is to find that girl and see her before something eles happens.
I don't know if my previous post posted or not. If this is a repeat of what I said before, you can ignore it. This is in response to Murph. I feel that Bromden has not had much of a part in the happenings in the book up to this point. I think the reason he is in the book and telling the story, is because he is a bridge from the reader to the ward. His view may be biased, but he really shows us the evils that happen in the ward, and how it affects the patients there. He is more biased to McMurphy's side, but up to this point, he doesn't do much in the ward. Since he is actually a patient there, we get the emotion of what is happening to these people. He allows us to connect to the other patients in the ward.
ROD FARVA glad you decided to join team CAR-RAMROD, but that is aside the point of this wonderful post I am about to post... Regaurding your post, I would have to agree with your statement that he was "falling into the society," and becoming a "machine," McMurph also displays his changing personality
in the book. He enters the WARD "GUNS BLAZIN'," and then settles down and starts to conform...
oh ya,
Hey Farva what's the name of that restaurant you like with all the goofy stuff on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?
i agree with zero: chief is a good narrator because even he allows the reader to--in a way-- experience both sides of the story...chief's "deafness" works to his advantage as well as the reader. chief is allowed to clean in the room while nurse and the doctors are talking which allows us to learn about the way the nurse and doctors think and how they view certain people--and justify the shock treatments, ect. however, having chief as the narrator also allows the reader to experience the pain and suffering the patient go through first hand--chief has gone through most of the treatments as well and knows what its like. the reader learns that the group meetings and treatments are what is making the patients crazy..most of them do not have psycolic problems(chief explains how the fog machine works, ect. which shows he is really smart--if there is no "real" problem with chief--and yet he is at the hospital--it causes the reader to question if the other patients have an actual problem or not as well.
anybody have any examples from the book that show how chief has grown?? besides like how he raises his hand and can see through the fog...
so..this one page response doesnt have to do with the tye of hero mcmurphy is...right?? i though teschner said it was going to...
The part where Bromden sees the dog has got me thinking. I have been looking for symbolism in that dog, but I can't seem to find something definite. I have saeveral ideas for what that scene may be. (for those who are curious as I am, but don't know the page..... the page number is 142). My thoughts on this dog started with the death of Cheswick and the possible death of the dog. Kesey leaves us completely open ended with that dog. He tells us a car and the dog are headed to the same spot of pavement..... and the suddenly Bromden is pulled away. I thought that might be the foreshadow to the death of Cheswick, (of course thought of that after reading the death of Cheswick). Though, the death of Cheswick and the possible death of the dog are ohnly linked by death. So I thought, possible, but in my head not as likely. So I paced around for a while wondering what is the point in having that scene. I tried to connect it to McMurphy. Like the dog, he sniffs around and tries to push the limits to see what he can get away with. He explores what the people do in the ward. As for the geese, I am still not sure what that has to do with McMurphy. The car might symbolize the nurse, and McMurphy's reality, that if he wants to stay alive, and make it through the ward, and get out, he has to avoid the car (A.K.A. Nurse Ratched). While that mighe be one possible symbolism for it, I don't beleive that it can only mean one thing, such as only McMurphy. I also don't think that it means as much as we make it to mean, or at least what I'm stretching it to mean. I think that it is possible that the dog and the outside jsut might mean freedom. It might be Bromden's freedom from the fog. The geese might be the staff of the ward, and he has to remain quiet while around them and not say anyhting, becuase they don't think he can hear. The car might be Bromden's idea of the combine, and how it is after him, and if he is not careful, it might get him. These are some of my theories for that scene. Though, I don't think that these are the only theories there are. I do beleive I will find myself pacing yet again hoping to determine what it might mean, whether it is simple, like Bromden looking outside, or complex, like Bromden finally seeing clearly now that Nurse Ratched has been beaten once. Please share your thoughts.
In response to Stephanie. I was trying to figure out as well how this was related to the hero project the other day. I think the mention of McMurphy as a hero might have been what he meant, but I think the main focus is on Bromden. As for example...... Like I just put, Bromden finally sees clearly after so long of being in the fog. He says how everything is quiet. Aside from that, I don't see much improvement on his part. He raises his hand, and the fog is gone for him. I think that soon, he will grow a lot more and actually have an affect on the happenings in the ward, but as of this point those are the only two examples I see.
Above, Catherine mention about how EST is what one thing that the ward knows will dominate the patients.
I think soon or later in the book, someone's going to try to stop the EST at once. Ratched is too greedy..
I wish she gets some of those shock theraphy to feel how the patients are going through.
I agree with zero in that I believe Chief will grow more as the novel comes to an end. I haven't seen that much growth either...
I think how McMurphy has changed would have been slightly easier...? Guess it doesn't matter
I wanted to bring up a new point of what Chief Bromden really stands for. (Which is part of our paper response for English class..) I think Chief represents the minds of Miss Ratched and McMurphy. He sees both sides of them and since he is the main character, or main story-teller.. I believe he is somewhat of a spirit that is within the ward and the minds of Miss Ratched, McMurphy and the other mental patients.. etc.
I know.. deep. :]
For me, i put that Bromden is meant to help emphasize the effects of the protagonist (mcmurphy) and the antagonist(big nurse), but also represents the choice that the patients have for which side they stand up for. he uses a lot of observation to help the reader understand both sides and the effects of both sides, and also switches off between which side he chooses to support.
i think that Chief Bromden clearly has grown a lot so far, they all have. McMurphy has been an extremely strong influence on them all and has changed their level of hope. but have they really grown..or have they only decided to stand behind someone that has proved to be capable of overpowering the big nurse? because in that case, i dont believe that any of them have really grown at all, only conformed to a different leader and idea. it seems to me that they tend to find the strongest leader/idea and go with it.
I don't fully agree with you jaquee. It is an interesting way of looking at it. However, I don't think that he is their minds. He knows nothing of what is in either of their minds. He is an outside view on both of them. If he was both their minds, then the book would have more of a third person omniscent feel to it. Though, I do feel that you are on to something. He knows what a lot of Nurse Ratched's plans. He often listens in on her. He also gets McMurphy's plans and thoughts as well. I do think you are partially right. He does know what's inside both of their heads, but I don't believe he is their minds. Also, he doesn't see much into other people's heads beside McMurphy and Ratched.
to respond to zero...
I would have to agree with your attempt to extend my thoughts on Chief Bromden. He is somewhat of an outside-viewer. But still, doesn't quite know what exactly McMurphy and Miss Ratcher are always thinking. He may get a glimpse or idea of what their thought process is, but doesnt fully know their minds.
I do like the point brought up about how Bromden is somewhat of an observer.
I think he tends to grow and become influenced by these characters. He has many emotions but he keeps them intraverted.
:]
Wow! Bromden from a third person omniscent narrator. The only issue with that is the fact that this narrator would be God-Like, as in they would decide the fates of all the characters. What I like about that argument, is the fact that we never know exactly how much we can trust a narrator who is in a psych ward. Interesting viewpiont though. He could actually be misleading his audience (you) regarding what actually happened or if it happened. Huh?
AS FOR MCMURPHY AS A HERO RESPONSE -- THAT IS THE NEXT RESPONSE.
GOOD STUFF! KEEP IT UP!
Another thing that I'm just spitballing here is that R.P. McMurphy not RIP McMurphy maybe the author is trying to tell us the outcome of the book just by the letters of the first name.
Commenting on juon post, i agree with him that Chief Bromden is growing as the novel continues, he is just another person that making the journey back to sanity.
Response to rod farva... I never thought of it like that, how R.P McMurphy is like RIP McMurphy and how it may tell us something just by his name. Maybe everything that McMurphy has done and got a way with will come back to get him. It seems like something Ken Kesey would do because he was kind of "out of it" while writing this book.
Today in class we talked about how the ward is helping everyone but McMurphy...I think that is somewhat true but just wanted to say that i think the ward is also helping McMurphy. Even though he really doesnt have any serious problems, being in the ward has made him mature and actually care about the others. The ward is helping McMurphy too..just in a different way.
I'd have to agree with Jamie.
The Ward at first seemed to be a reprieve for McMurphey from hard labor, but I do agree that it is helping him. He is growing closer to the other patients and cares about them.
Being in the ward is backfiring on McMurphy's plan of dominance. He is being broken down when he sees the patients around him, which sort of foreshadows his future in the ward. The goal of ratched is to keep her patients under her watch, forever. I mean, why else hasn't McMurphy been released yet? Everybody should've already caught on to his little game. Ratched needs a new pet and she sure found it.
Hardings wife doesn't really seem to love him, in fact she flirts with Mc Murphy which is another example of the theme Women as threatening figures i feel bad for harding because there is nothing he can do to keep his wife loyal. Another thing when Cheswick dies at the pool is he commiting suicide or is he just trying to escape? did he lose faith in Mc murphy or was he finally sticking up for himself...?
I think the reason why women are considered a threat in this book because they have complete dominance over the men. When it comes to dealing with a small child, who fits the job? A mother. The men are like small children in many ways. Also, women have a keener sense of nurturing than men do. In this case, the mentaly degraded men are like children, and their mother figure is Nurse Ratched. They won't go against her because she is a "mom." Also, when harding gets a visit from his wife, she treats him so bad. Even when he is outside the ward, he is still under the control of a woman. He is forever stuck by this, and maybe this is what made him even more depressed?
I wanted to comment also on the fact of what Chief Bromden stands for in the book. I think everyone has a different point of view and opinion of what Chief symbolizes. From what I've read on other posts, I agree a little with everyone. How he stands as an "insightful" character. He is the narrator of our story, so most of us rely on what he sees that goes on in the ward everyday. But also, what Teschner said, we can't always believe what a person that is in a mental hospital says. Chief has a choice on whether to speak out against the nurse or the patients. But unfortunately he refues, and remains quiet. I think something big is going to happen, and I think that Chief is going to play a big role or be the influence of it. Whatever "it" may be.
Indeed. Nurse is going to put an end to McMurphy.
In response to what the dickens. I would have to disagree at this point in time. Though, it is possible that she may finally break him. However, as of this point McMurphy is still very much in the game. I have yet to read tonights chapters, but McMurphy, as far as I have read, has only taken a short break. He realized that he might be in there for a long time and he wanted to get out. Though, after Cheswick's death, (in response to Penfold, see my earlier post on my opinion of whether he committed suicide or not) McMurphy has a renewed idea of his position in the ward. Cheswick's final words were to McMurphy. Bromden tells us that his last words were "He said he did wish SOMETHING mighta been done, though," (pg 151). Later on, McMurphy does do something. He punches through glass to make a point to Nurse Ratched. We were deciding whether or not he actually punched through the glass, but after the glass company came and he did it again, that removed all doubt in my mind that he didn't do it. Anyways, he listened to Cheswick. He didn't let Cheswick down, even though it was a bit late to save him. You can argue whether that is letting him down or not, but I feel it was still in memory of Cheswick. Cheswick's death brought back McMurphy. I think McMurphy finally realizes what he means to these patients, and what this place is doing to them. It is no longer just about McMurphy, it is about the ward. I think that we will see McMurphy now become the Christian Hero. It is possible that in the end he will sacrifice himself for the good of the others, but I do not think that he is going down without a fight. He refuses to be broken, and just because she beat him once, doesn't mean that the fight is over. The score is tied as I see it, McMurphy beat her once, and now she beat him once. Both know the other is beatable. Now I think the battle between McMurphy and Nurse Ratched really starts.
In response to Rod Farva. His initials are also R.P.M., as in revolutions per minute. He does seem to live life in the fast lane. So perhaps his name does say a lot about his character.
RESPONSE TO QUESTIION 2
2. Who died at the pool? Why is this death significant? How is it important?
I WAS CONFUSED ON THIS A LITTLE BIT, BY WHO DIED, BUT NOW I KNOW CHESWICK IS THE ONE WHO DIES, AND I SORT OF THINK THAT PART OF HIM REALLY DIDN'T KNOW THAT HE WOULD DIE WHILE TRYING TO ESCAPE, BUT I THINK THAT ANOTHER PART OF HIM KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING BY TRYING TO ESCAPE THROUGH THE GRATE BECAUSE IT SAID HE WAS CLENCHING ONTO THE GRATE AND THAT MEANS HE DIDN'T WANT TO FLOAT BACK UP TO SURFACE, OR SWIM BACK UP.. AND HIM BEING "CRAZY" AND "NOT KNOWING" THE CONSEQUENCES FOR TRYING TO ESCAPE UNDERWATER WAS JUST A COVER UP. HE WAS TRYING TO ESCAPE THE HOSPITAL, BUT I ALSO THINK HE WAS JUST TRYING TO ESCAPE EVERYTHING, AND CAN BE LOOKED AT AS BEING A FORM OF SUICIDE.
IN RESPONSE TO ZERO'S LONGGGGG COMMENT, [[I DONT KNOW IF THIS COUNTS AS A POST]] BUT I AGREE WITH BASICALLY EVERYTHING HE SAID.
Wow, I thought that the connections to McMurphy's initials were really good. I definately never thought of either of those. During lunch Mr. Sefelt started to seizure, but i'm not sure what McMurphy learned from it. In tonight's reading, Chief finally spoke! I'm so glad that he finally opened up. In my one page response I mentioned that Chief found a safety and confidant in McMurphy and this supports my claim. I'm looking forward to watching Chief grow more to the end of the novel.
Whats up with Harding and his wife?
I totally agree with what McMurphy says. McMurphy proves something to Harding. He says ".. you want me to feel sorry for your, to think shes a real bitch. Well, you didn't make her feel like any queen either."
McMurphy seems to become easily aggravated at anything around him, now that he has been in the ward for so long. Yet again, I do not think McMurphy can really change himself for others and not be honest about a situation. McMurphy, in my mind, is starting to show signs of social changes.
I think Bromden's view's of narratoring might now be all 100% true. He's one of the Chronics?? .. so he might just imaging things sometimes around the ward and telling the reader his own lost thoughts.
Then again.. really what does he represent?
Going to what yleinah said about Chief, I'm also glad that he spoke. I think it showed his trust in McMurphy, just like him raising his hand when McMurphy called for a vote, I think we're going to continue to see Chief change more and more throughout the rest of the novel because he has someone to trust.
How do you think Miss Ratched will react if/when she finds out that Chief actually said something?
woow! i was so excited that Chief finally talked to McMurphy..i think Chief feels that he can trust McMurphy and since they now share this little secret--they are becoming closer almost like friends. hopefully Chief will speak up more often now..but i thought Chief would have made McMurphy promise not to tell anyone that he isnt deaf-but it guess not..i think this shows that Chief has a lot of trust in McMurphy and he hopes that he will be able to become big again...i just hope nurse doesnt find out about chief not being deaf cause i think he would get in a lot of trouble
oh yeah..so does anyone know how McMurphy is going to make Chief "big" again?? at first i thought the "big" was only symbolic for becoming more confident and feeling like its ok for him to talk because someone is listening to him...but at the end-McMurphy talked about a workout or something to get Chief physically bigger and stronger...im confused but im guessing its probally both
i agree with stephanie about how Chief trust McMurphy. becasue McMurphy is now helping out other inmates, i think this will help Chief grow even more than he already has. and maybe by the end of the book all the for will be gone?
In response to Sarak Jess, another thing that I have at least brought up in my class, I believe it was today, was that a child can comprehend suicide or at the very least know what it means. However the child would often have a premature comprehesion to its full meaning. So often does this occur that even into our later adolescence we still have false visions of things like glory, principles(duties), and even suicide. So often we see young men go fight wars for some dissallusioned sense of patriotic duty, that we have millions of deaths within weeks of the onslaught of a war(World War I to name at least one). I believe children do understand the concept but vaguely understand the consequences, and the importance(if any of the death) to a cause they know pretty much nothing about(this argument would be sort of irrevelant if we saw Cheswick as sane). So ruling out the suicide attempt would be a little bit of a stretch, children and the mentaly ill(if Cheswick is even mentally ill) can comprehend death and suicide.
In response to Stephanie. I have a feeling McMurphy is planning something big. At the beginning, they are only talking about big in the mental sense of it. He sees McMurphy as this big guy, though he isn't as physically big as he is mentally. At the end of the chapter though, he tells Bromden that he is going to make him big, in the physical sense. He asks Bromden about the control panel and asks if Bromden thinks he can lift it. Bromden thinks that he can since he used to lift things about that size. I believe McMurphy is planning on doing something big in the ward. The control panel provides an excape for him. I think he is already planning his final attack to end the battle between him and nurse Ratched, and prove to the other patients that they don't need her, and become the savoir to them.
In response to Stephanie again, Bromden did speak up. I think it is great that he is speaking, but I find a different part of that chapter more interesting than Bromden speaking. Well, more like two parts. The first part is when McMurphy first talked to Bromden that night. He sang a song to him and got him to finally open up. Again, McMurphy got Bromden to laugh, an actual laugh. Aure, the laugh may have been short, but nonetheless Bromden, of all people, laughed. When McMurphy comes into the ward, Bromden mentions how he had not heard an actual laugh in a long time. So the person that had not talked for years, and had not heard a real laugh in years, is brought to laughter by the person who brought laughter to the ward. A little further on, but not much, McMurphy offers gum to Bromden, and by the looks of it, he will be getting Bromden more. That simple act of giving gum to Bromden meant the world to him. He had been chewing the same pieces of gum for years, not to mention sticking in under a bed all day to sit (but for the sake of everyone's stomaches I wont go into much detail there). That simple act gave Bromden joy. I don't think anyone I have given gum to over the years, or who I will ever give gum to in the future will ever be as excited as Bromden was. Then again, I never know who I will meet. Now I feel like giving gum to everyone. Getting back on topic, my second favorite part of this chapter. When Bromden wants to reach out and touch McMurphy. I have to admit, reading that fisrt part where he is telling us the reasons, but turns out he was lying about all the reasons, made that entire scene creepy. Although, it was saved by his last truth. He wanted to touch McMurphy, he says because, "he's who he is." That really got to me. With that one scene, it made McMurphy a Christian Hero. He is Bromden's savoir. Needless to say, he "performed a miracle" by getting the once speechless Bromden to speak yet again, but Bromden feels tempted to just touch him. To Bromden, McMurphy is his savoir. McMurphy is this untouchable force that as reached down grabbed him from the fog, and is almost giving him a new life. McMurphy is going to make Bromden big again. He has already given Bromden his speech back, though it was never truely gone (though you can argue that it was). My points may have been lost in my rambling. My point is that, with a sweet song and a simple gift, he has renewed Bromden. I, for one, think that is greater than Bromden just speaking.
Also, until reading this chapter, everyone was wondering the symbolism behind Cheswick's death. I have given my ideas, and as of now, I'm still sticking with them. Now in addition, as I mentioned before, I feel his death was a wake up call for McMurphy. While we don't see him instantly changing, I feel that his death was one of the main reasons why McMurphy came back to his old ways. It seems as though McMurphy even does something in dedication jsut for Cheswick, just to almost ask for forgiveness for giving up. His first action to come back from his defeat, was to get his cigarettes back. He didn't wait for the nurse to give them to him. He broke the window, reached in, and took what belonged to him. He finally did SOMETHING, like Cheswick wanted him too. So I think his death helped to bring McMurphy back.
In response to Teschner's comment on my comment. I do believe you may have misread my comment. I do not believe it is third person omniscient for thevery reason that we are looking through Bromden's eyes, and we do not know everything. Though, you may have just been using that as an example to state that it is close but not quite third person omniscient. I do agree though. It gets very close to third person omniscient. We know a lot of what goes through the characters' heads because they feel free to talk around Bromden, because they don't think he can hear. As for what we can tell is believable from his view point is hard to say. I personally feel that we aren't supposed to take everything he says literally, such as Nurse Ratched's hands getting bigger to turn on the black boy at the beginning of the book. However, I do feel that because of these things he sees, and because of the biased view of it, we can take from those visions the actual scenario and get an accurate idea of what this ward is doing to these people.
In response to yleinah, I think that what he got from Mr. Sefelt's episode at lunch was not an immediate thing. That started his investigation into the different aspects of the ward, and what they do to treat these people. I think that the incident at lunch, led to McMurphy yelling at all the people as they waited in line for the x-ray. Also, that incident led to him realizing how the patients are not committed. From learning that they are not committed, and having Billy run off, He decided that he really was going to change for all of them, including Cheswick, though he is dead. He wanted to show all the patients that the things in life that put them down can be defeated, he just has to show them that people like Nurse Ratched are not invincible, and can be taken down once and for all, unlike the first time that he defeated her.
Mc Murphy's Talk with the lifeguard siginifies him realizing that he has no say on when he can be relaeased or how he is treated within the ward. So he beigins to act as though he wants not to be a nuissance, and to get out qucikly with as little problems or conflicts as possible.
In response to Stephanie: The chief's idea of people's size is relavent to how they carry themselves.. for instance when chief says his mother looked bigger than his father when she sold their land to the white people, because she was portraying herself in a way in which she seems bigger only because she had more forceful gestures... and also with nurse Ratched when she was angry chief said she looked bigger than ia house.
In response to Steve...
I completely agree with your comment. Chief describes people by way of their actions. His mother thought she was better than them, therefore she left. So he described her as being so much bigger than them. He is not speaking in a literal sense.
As with Nurse Ratched, she is constantly speaking down on patients in the ward, therefore he describes her as being bigger than a house, which represents her control and power over those in the mental hopsital.
In response to Zero's comment about the significance of Cheswick's death, I have to agree. Cheswick's death pushed McMurphy to change back into his rebellious self. The scene when Cheswick started hollering about getting his cigaretts back while McMurphy did nothing probably made McMurphy realize how much he missed being rebellious, although McMurphy remained reserved. When Cheswick died, the change of McMUrphy's behavior to his old ways seemed to be linked back to Cheswick's death.
When Harding's wife visits the hospital, McMurphy reveals that he had dreams of seeing many people. I believe that this could symbolize McMurphy's desires to leave the hospital, his fear of being taken advantage of Nurse Ratched in having to stay at the hospital for a longer time than necessary, or being mocked at by the other patients for not being able to fully get Nurse Ratched.
*Oops. In my post above, I meant to say faces, not people*
In response to Hillary's comment, i don't know if Bromden's mother thought she was better than everyone else since she was not an indian but white, or that Bromden's dad was losing his confidence, power, and own self during the whole government persuading them and telling them they were going to take their land. As Bromden's dad kept getting beat down and taken over, he became smaller on the inside which is kind of how he describes McMurphy. He tells McMurphy that he is a lot bigger than him, which literally he is not, but Chief says that McMurphy is more courageous and a bigger man on the inside.
Yes, like Jacquee i'm very curious as to if Nurse Ratched will find out that Chief is not a mute and how she will react. I'm thinking that she will use the EST until he becomes a vegetable. I definately don't want that to happen to Chief, but it seems like something Big Nurse would do. Also, Stephanie asked about how McMurphy was going to make Chief big again. By big he means like muscular, or physically. McMurphy and Chief made a deal that if McMurphy made Chief big again he would have to lift the control panel in the tub room. Probably to throw at the door or window to break out.
In respence to yleinah, I agree that if Nurse Rached will turn Chief into a vegtabel if she ever finds out he is not deaf and dumb, he knows all of her secrets and she has to shut him up before he can tell people all of the things she has done
In response to zero, one of the first things I mentioned in my repose was the beauty of not knowing everyone's thoughts, feelings, etc. It brings about great conversation, because the writer has to or more like can put more purpose into conversation than in action and setting detail. If one was to really write an omniscient story, it would have to be very complecated with snippets of thought left out here and there, so that the whole mystery of the story isn't given out within the first couple of pages. It would be very awesome if you think about it, but also very hard to write a good one. Back to the book, Bromden telling the story does seem to remind us of an omniscient narration because he pays great attention to detail, and because he is welling to give his thought on why something is happening this way or that.
I agree with Alexbott's comment. Chief sees the ward as a whole, and sees many aspects that most can't see. With his full picture and personal insight, the story is told with a personal touch.
Also can anyone give me approx. page numbers for when Bibbit is talking about his mom and McMurphy is talking about his past. Thanks
I agree with mitzy 25 on that the Nurse would take full advantge of chief if she known that he is not deaf or dume. But i have a feeling the Nurse is already catching on to CHief so might be conflict later in the story.
to response to juon
I think Chief will grow as charcter but only from McMUrphy help. Because i belive that McMurphy be more of a hero that make Chief grow more because he looks up to McMurphy.
To response to yeah
Chief does look at the ward as whole becasue he can. But we also have to remeber that we can't always agree what he writes.
i'm kinda confused on what to place harding as...
Gamester- McMurphy
Lonely Victim- Bibbit
Do Nothing- Chief Bromden
harding...???
HELP!!!
To agree with Gdog. That is the beauty of a novel written by a character's perspective. It makes you wonder if what he says is factual or exagerated and takes a deeper approach to the novel.
I'm still really confused about the Combine. I can't figure out if it's an actual thing or just symbolism. During this past night's homework, Chief was talking about how the Combine was after his land or something, so I wondered if maybe the Combine was the government, or society in general. I don't know...thoughts?
In response to Sarah Jess I think that you would have to put Harding under the Mad Dog category by default, but also because he exhibits some of the traits of a Mad Dog in the sense that although not every1 in the ward likes him before RPM arrived you could say that Harden was the most vocal.
Yea I'm with Hillary, I'm not exactly sure what the Combine is. My guess up to tihs point is that it represents Bromden's fear of industrial machines and technology.
In response to yeah I disagree becuase I don't think that this the beauty of the njovel because you never really no what happens, and waht doesnt happen. It makes the book really confusing and I have a feeling that in the end there are going to be a lot of unanswered ?'s.
To respond to favre4ever, I think that having a character telling the story being good or bad is purely based on personal preferance. Some people enjoy reading deeper into books and some just reading for pure enjoyment. However, I do agree that there will be unanswered questions at the end.
Also I agree with Favre4ever that the combine does represent Bromden's fear of something, but not neccisarily machines and teachonoly but perhaps something that we have no been introduced to yet.
In response to Hillary, the combine represents everything that trys to hold control over the welfare of others. Take smoking for example, some may see it is neither right or even costitutional to ban smoking in restaurants or other private institutions that accomidate the public because a) it is based on private property rights(ultimatley if a restaurant wants to keep customers coming they are most likely going to make it smoke free without government intervention due to the casting of economic votes) and b)no one can tell someone what is healthy or not and that it is up to someone to decide that on their own. Look at when Bromden has a beer for the first time in years, he says that the bugs(as in wire taps) are being destroyed because he is drinking something that is ultimatley not good for you. But he continues to drink because it is his choice. He describes the combine, as if it is some sort of orwellian society, where everyone knows what is best for you, and he see's that as some sort of evil technology. That is what the hospital is, they decide for you what to eat, what to do, and when and where you are going to do those things. It's less of a literal sense, and more of a philosophical/societal analysis.
I think some people were confused on one of my comments, when I said that the less of an omniscient narration the better the conversation, what I meant was that what doesn't come out in inner thoughts and emotions comes out in conversation. It is not that it will leave some stuff to be left out purposefully, but that does happen in some good stories, it is that it is provided in a different way, so that the reader can decipher what people mean through their actions/comments.
I was trying to say what alexbott said in my earlier post. Some people enjoy reading to uncover things, sort of like a puzzle or riddle. You have to search deeper than what's given to you in order to unlock the true answer.
I was trying to say what alexbott said in my earlier post. Some people enjoy reading to uncover things, sort of like a puzzle or riddle. You have to search deeper than what's given to you in order to unlock the true answer.
I think the part where McMurphy breaking the glass is the climax of the story. After he broke the glass, not only McMurphy but the men's attitude has change in the ward, rebeling against Nurse Ratched. After this event occur, more men follows McMurphy's lead and the whole ward's environment is changing. People are more active and such, even the black staff, when playing basketball.
this is kind of earlier question in the book but can someone tell me what really happen on pg. 161?
What might this signify??
is it like foreshadowing the rebirth of McMurphy's rebeling?
im confused...
To answer a study guide question as to if the trip was theraputic:
Chief says: "We'd just shared the last beer and along the empty can out the window at a stop sign were just leaning back to get the feel of the day, swimming in that kind of tasty drowsiness that comes over you after a day of going hard of something you enjoy doing-" I think he enjoyed himself and the trip overall.
I agree with HEA7ENx3. The climax of the book was when McMurphy shattered the glass the first time, as well as the process of the glass shattering the second and third time. After these events occured the Ward got more lively, as HEA7ENx3 said, and they started participating in things more and started to overall get better
As to Cheswick's death i never really saw any symbolism in it pertaining to the story, unless it symbolized something about himself, but rather as a misfortune. I feel this book is a bit more real than other books as pertaining to life and that not everything has meaning behind it. SHit just happens, you just kinda have to look deeper into things.(which i guess could bring about symbolism.)
With the cards splashing every where i think it represents disorder. Mcmurphy was familiar, well more than familiar, with the deck. The deck can be used for all sorts of games, like games of life. The deck has order to it, numbers, rules, things that just make sense when known, especially to Mcmurphy. and by the cards spilling hes throwing away all known order in his life. Things he thought he once knew in life before the ward are now just crashing down. In the ward is a whole new life with new rules, everything once thought or conceived before have no purpose, no value, no moral. its as if he needs a whole new deck to play the game with, and a new game at that.
I agree with alli's post on McMurphy steeping into reality. When he arrived he thought he was in control, mainly because he knew he wasn't crazy, but now when he truely realizes the rules and how this whole game is played it hits him, and hits him hard.
To answer Hillary's question on what the Combine is, it's the government as Chief mentioned during the part where he's thinking about his village when he was young. He said something like the Combine worked on his father for years and wanted to take the falls and make them live in inspected houses and how they beat him up and cut his hair short. Then M.M. asked why they beat up his father and Chief replied "they wanted to make him see what he had in store for him only worse if he didn't sign the papers giving everything to the government" (187).
I agree with HEA7ENx3 that when M.M. shattered the glass, it signified the turning point in the novel because it shows when he becomes his old self again. To answer her question about what the cards splashing everywhere might signify. I think it also signifies M.M. changing back into himself. Like him trying to stay composed would be the cards in the deck then his hands start to tremble and they go everywhere like him bursting out and starting to rebel again and he can't keep himself composed anymore. (hopefully that made sense)
I thought that it was interesting how McMurphy proved the Acutes that they were wrong about him doing only things for his own benefit. McMurphy defends George when the black boys try to wash him by fighting against the black boys. What surprised me is that Chief decided to help McMurphy in his fight. Perhaps McMurphy decided to help George just to prove the Acutes that they were wrong, because he realized the true reason why the Acutes started not liking him after his private discussion with McMurphy.
In responce to Doug Kapica, McMurphy relizes that he is not the one in control. In the begging he thought he could control the ward eith no consequences, now that he realizes what the nurse can do to him he isn't so confident.
RPM did not realize who had control or cared who had the power. Then he was reminded that nurse ratched is the one who says if he can go home or not. Then he started to conform hoping to get out of the hospital.
I agree with D.S. McMurphy slowly realized that he wasn't top dog at the Ward. Even if he had power over the patients, the one with the final say is Nurse Ratched and she alone can decide who goes home and who stays.
When RPM stood up for George, he was showing the patients he does care about them. Did he win over all of the patients or only some of them?
I disagree with Hea7enx3 and Yeah. The breaking of the glass was not the climax of the story. I agree that it was an interesting part, but since then, there has only been more and more action between the nurse and McMurphy. The nurse realized that she could turn the patients against McMurphy. That played a big role, because there was that doubt in the patients mind that McMurphy is the perfect man. The nurse found a weakness, but it was not McMurphy's weakness, it was the patients'. However, Harding backed McMurphy up. He was able to show them the truth, that McMurphy is not perfect, and is only human. Nonetheless, McMurphy and Nurse Ratched are still battling back and forth. The glass was merely a renewel of the fight. McMurphy decided to fight back again.
As I was saying, the fight between Nurse Ratched and McMurphy is getting itneresting. Both are winning battles. Nurse Ratched got many of the patients to doubt McMurphy, but Harding was able to show them what they really knew all along. Bromden almost started to doubt McMurphy himself and that he wasn't as good of a guy as he thought McMurphy was. He was right though. McMurphy is not the perfect guy that he was appearing to be. Though, he is just human, and vulnerable to the flaws of every other man. Bromden stood up for McMurphy at the end, even though he saw the flaws. He helped McMurphy win the fight. The fight did show McMurphy's true character. At the beginning of the book we saw McMurphy prodomenatly as a western hero. As we read further into the book, he changed more into a christian hero. Nurse Ratched won a battle, and McMurphy quit being a hero altogether. When McMurphy came back, he was shown mostly as a christian hero. Now we see McMurphy again as a western hero. He benefits from what he does, though, I don't believe anyone can say that he is not helping these people. If McMurphy can benefit from the situation, he will. Though, when we saw the fight, as far as we know, he has nothing to benefit from that fight. He was merely sticking up for those who couldn't stick up for themselves. While the fight was showing McMurphy as a christian hero, I think that he was never really a christian hero at all. I think that a western hero will help others every chance they can, but will try and benefit from the situation every change they get. Though, they do not always benefit from the situation. So, I think that we have seen McMurphy as a western hero, and hardly a christian hero at all.
In response to Stephanie and myself on the 8th. We saw that McMurphy never meant physically bigger. We see that McMurphy has only made Bromden see himself mentally as being bigger. We find out all along that Bromden had the strength to lift the control panel. McMurphy was able to make Bromden mentally bigger. By making him mentally bigger, McMurphy was able to get Bromden to lift the control panel. If Bromden had never seen himself as a bigger person, he never would have lifted the block, because he didn't think he could. With McMurphy's help, he was more confident.
What I like about this section of the novel is that it's getting back to the good stuff. McMurphy is going back to his roots and rebelling against the ward. And it shows that the patients truly did follow him as their leader b/c they are rebelling as well. Good stuff
i disagree with zero.
If McMurphy hadn't shatter the glass, making into a climax of the story, this whole insanity of people just going along with the ward will just be meaningless. If this didn't occur there wouldnt be anymore action to the ward, expect the fact that McMurphy will s**k up and let Nurse Ratched to control you 24/7.
wait
i dont really get why McMurphy is still sucking up... i know he is realizing that hes just gonna get in trouble, but why isnt he going back to his old ways???
in response to hillary a while up..i think the combine is really just society.. nurse's whole reasoning behind trying to "cure" the patients was so they would be able to go back into society. If the combine is really society, it is symbolically saying that people are- in a way- being forced to conform to the chagning world. if everyone is not exacly the same and seen as "perfect" then society/the combine will point out those flaws and try to fix them. everyone wants to be perfect and accepted in society, but we know that no one is perfect..by pointing out others' flaws, people like the nurse..feel better about themselves when they are able to fnd more flaws in others than in themselves. If u focus on others' problems, u forget about your own and therfore feel better...it is a messed up way of thinking but this is sometimes how society today (or the combine) acts
in response to the climax: i think the climax of the book was when the doctor sided with the patients and allowed them to go on the fishing trip--without Nurse's approval...or maybe its when Chief first talks to Mcmurphy?? i dont really know..but i think it is probally when they leave for the fishing trip because after that it seems like all the patients loosen up and are willing to officially stand up agianst the nurse..even the doctor realizes that their treatements are not healing the patients but hurting them and for the first time... he wants to see them get better-- i wonder what brought about this change of heart in the doctor...
I agree with you zero,
i found it really interesting to finally see Bromden truly "grow" in size. Throughout the book ive found ti really cool how the narrator uses size as a sense of confidence rather than physical size. I think thats why Bromden always thought he was so small and McMurphy was so much bigger, but now i would say that he is growing just as "big".
I would say that the climax is when Bromden finally talks. throughout the whole book we hear everything that is going on in his head, while everyone else in the book does not. I think that the point in the novel where Bromden finally decided to open his mouth and share his thoughts was when EVERYONE began to be involved, even Bromden who always watched from the distance.
In response to stephanie and alli, the climax of the novel is when Chief talks to McMurphy for the first time. This is when we see the most dramatic change in a character. When this happened it showed McMurphy’s true power over the patients, he helps everyone.
In response to Mitzy: I believe that the climax of the book could have been when Chief Bromden finally expresses himself vocally for the first time. But when I think of what the climax of the book is whne Mc murphy takes the guys on the fishing trip, because it is the first time that the patients are pretty much left to fend for themselves for a while
The fishing trip is climax because The patients for the first time are brought into normal society.Also for the first time We see the group being treated like they're not beneath everyone else. It also that Nurse Ratched's therapy was only for her own sick amusement.
amen, steve. I agree.
Kinda random, but to throw my opinion out there, when you look at all the characters, they were brought down by a certain women on the outside. After that, they are kind of recessive. Is that why McMurphy isn't insane just yet, because a woman wasn't there to bring him down? He seemed to control women on the outside and not let them get to him. Is the woman that's supposed to bring down McMurphy going to be Ratched?
To reply to the comment before this, I think that it may be a possibility that McMurphy hasn't gone "insane" yet because he doesn't allow people to have control over him. In class today, we talked about how McMurphy was the only character who hasn't been controlled completely by the hospital and the fog. Chief says repeatedly that the fog or the hostpial hasn't gotten to McMurhpy yet. McMurphy's ability to have control over things might be the only thing keeping him sane. I wonder how it will end though? Will McMurphy win or will the hostpial take over McMurphy completely?
i agree with maura that McMurphy hasn't gone insane....yet. He is the only one there that isn't. He brings life and inspiration into the ward, so the people who were are beginning to come out of that shell. McMurphy has changed the scene of the ward in numerous and is also giving the men better treatment than the hospital could offer. Taking them on fishing trips, and letting them rebel against the nurse by voting on watching tv has helped them gain courage they probably wouldn't have shown before.
I still don't know how the Chief began to have pain from before he was in the hospital. We know how the other characters got in the ward but Bromden is still the mystery. Was it just because of the 2 men that didn't pay attention to him or could it be that he is putting up a front to supress something that happened to him with his father/ tribe?
I agree with maura, McMurphy hasn't gone insane because no one can control him. This will not last forever, McMurphy will eventually break, if he doesn't he will spent the rest of his life in the hospital with Nurse Rached.
i agree with Catherine's comment about how McMurphy might be helping the patients more than the hospital is or ever has in the past.
An example would be the fishing trip. The patients are restricted in the hostpial, not the real world..so how is the hostpial going to help them get out and move on to the real world? It seems like the hospital wants to keep the patients in the hospital and suffer more than live their lives and enjoy their lives.
i think that is the point. to keep them within the boundaries that they're stuckin within. kind of like the whole relation to the fog thing, with it possibly being society. society molds us in ways we don't even realize and we can't really escape.
i somewhat agree with hip.cup.
like i do think that society can mold us, but we have the power to change that. look at McMurphy, he tried to be different and doesnt want to be like everyone else, thats why he acts out all the time
Is Randle's sudden "exhuastion" signifiying that he is becoming humble. Once they came back from the fishing trip everyoen was commenting on how he was rowdy as usual, but maybe he's just maturing.
I agree with Maura and Catherine in the idea that only McMurphy is impacting the other patients, not the ward itself. One thing i dont agree with, though, is that McMurphy will lose his sanity. If he is a true hero, like weve been talking about in class, he will not back down the the ward.
I'm gonna disagree with Jamie and say that the Ward is destroying McMurphy's sanity. With his suroundings being unlike that of the real world, he is put into a surreal trance life that he is slowly growing accustomed to. It may seem like he is normal in relation to the rest of the Ward, but when he gets back out into society, he is going to have a hard time adapting back in.
i agree with Yeah...
and not only is it McMurphy, but everyone else on the ward too. none of them are going to be able to get back into the real world. in class we talked about how the ward only helped Harding, and is hurting everyone else
I agree with "yeah..."
We talked about this in class today. The only reason that McMurphy seems the most sane to us is that he hasn't been at the hospital for very long. It seems to me that the longer McMurphy stays, the more he loses his confidence.
Society does have an influence on us but is it always bad? I think RPM is an influence from society on the patients because he really doesn’t have much wrong with him. He gives them confidence when he takes them on the fishing trip. Without RPM none of them would have the guts t go on the trip or come up with the idea.
Also, although McMurphy is losing confidence, he still has more confidence than any of the other patients. Therefore, although McMurphy is losing sanity and confidence, he is still helping the other patients gain sanity and confidence.
In response to Natalie Beutler, McMurphy can't stay the same forever, he has not been in the hospital very longer and the longer he is there the more likely he is to go insane, eventually he will break and lose his confidence.
i agree with mitzy.
but i dont think hell be in there forever. like i dont think hell turn into a chronic
in response to mitzy
The length of time that McMurphy spends in the ward will not make him go crazy. On the contrary, if he stays longer than his jail sentence requires, then McMurphy will be forced to adhere to the rules set by Nurse Ratched. I doubt he ever will go insane, but he could become an oddball once he is released into the outside world
In response to Mitzy and chief, I think McMurphy is not going to be able to adapt back into society because of the length of time he has spent in the Ward. It is getting into his head.
in response to yeah..., I dont think McMurphy would have a hard time adapting back into society. Although he is losing some confidence I dont think his mental state is being effected too much.
I dont think McMurphy will have a problem adapting back into society becuase when he came to the ward he didnt really seem to have to much of a mental illness and over his time at the ward i dont think he was affected mentally but maybe more emotionally.
Cheswick dies at the pool. I never look at his death to be significant. I guess that it shows that he is try to find a way out and escape. I don't understand why he thought diving to the bottom of the pool would work but it backfired. Trying to escape took his life.
McMurphy realizes that if he fights back, he will be in the ward longer. I don't think at first he realized that. So after talking to the lifeguard, I believe that McMurphy starting thinking.
McMurphy is trying to win the battle over Nurse Ratched but so far it has been a challenge. When he got into the ward, he wanted out. He learns that the fastest way out is to stop rebelling against the nurse and actually do what he is told to do.
At lunch, Mr. Sefelt has an epileptic seizure because he has refused to take his medication. I'm not completely sure what McMurphy learns from it. But now he knows the medication that Sefelt refused was called Dilantin. Also the reason why Sefelt didn't take it and gave to Frederickson. Sefelt didn't like the effects of the medication and he new what would happen if he didn't take it.
I'm not exactly sure what EST symbolizes but Nurse Ratched uses it for punitive measures. Chief's perception of the Combine is what controls the ward and Ratched is running the controls and the EST is just another way of keeping control.
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